From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#41097: 28.0.50; (dired-toggle-marks) not working after copy Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 14:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5ac3067a-2f37-4122-8920-ca93d010c0dc@default> References: <83y2pzdgt7.fsf@gnu.org> <20200510145503.GE28606@protected.rcdrun.com> <83sgg7ddtz.fsf@gnu.org> <20200510153311.GH28606@protected.rcdrun.com> <83r1vrdbc0.fsf@gnu.org> <6bc132d3-2d2d-4eb3-86dd-b818c1b856a2@default> <83mu6fd9q6.fsf@gnu.org> <83k11jd8bs.fsf@gnu.org> <744818d3-e904-43a1-a3c1-a0a4a550ada1@default> <20200510195409.GD6298@protected.rcdrun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="5436"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, 41097@debbugs.gnu.org, tomasn@posteo.net, arthur.miller@live.com To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun May 10 23:16:10 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jXtIv-0001IG-RI for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Sun, 10 May 2020 21:15:26 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 04AL3pu4126555; Sun, 10 May 2020 21:13:26 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30x6euj9fw-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 10 May 2020 21:13:26 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0018.oracle.com (abhmp0018.oracle.com [141.146.116.24]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 04ALDIvR025661; Sun, 10 May 2020 21:13:18 GMT In-Reply-To: <20200510195409.GD6298@protected.rcdrun.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4993.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9617 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005100197 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9617 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1015 spamscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005100198 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:180032 Archived-At: > > Words matter. I gave a reason why I think > > Emacs chose to use "flag" for `D' - and only > > for `D': > > to flag something is to draw special attention ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > to it. >=20 > Your are rights that word matters. Then if I may ask, why is then > "flag" introduced instead of "Delete mark"? I said what I _think_ is the reason "flag" was used for `D' (and ONLY for `D') - see above. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flag#Verb: "To mark with a flag, especially to indicate the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ importance of something." ^^^^^^^^^^ Not just to indicate something - to point it out - but to point it out as being of special importance. In this sense, and especially when used in contrast to "mark", it means to mark _specially_, i.e., more than the way other Dired marks mark. Emacs has always treated `D' _uniquely_, by giving it a different term ("flag"). And my _hypothesis_ (which I expressed) is that this is because `D' can cause problems - data loss - if you don't pay special attention to it. =20 I can't speak authoritatively about the reason this was done - I didn't decide it. It was done decades ago. > How "flag" makes the deleting action more clear? It does not, if you > ask me. Ask whomever wrote Dired and maintained it for 35 years. It may not make "the deleting action" more clear, especially to someone for whom English is not the first language. Both "mark" and "flag" point something out - that's true. But the fact that ONLY `D' is referred to as a "flag", and only it (not `C' or any other mark) is referred to as "flagging" the file for the given action, should draw _special_ attention to it - should flag it (!) as being of particular importance or meriting special attention. Maybe this will help a bit (maybe not): the English verb "flag" translates to French as "signaler". The verb "mark" translates as "indiquer" or "marquer". Now do you see the difference? They're related, but signaler is generally more active, more important, more urgent. Signaler means you're really trying to get someone's attention; you're not just indicating something. > 2. (4) marker, marking, mark -- (a distinguishing symbol; "the owner's > mark was on all the sheep") >=20 > flag on the other hand is not so clear. It does not provide definition > for your intended action to draw special attention to it. Yes, it does. See above, or try another dictionary. > In fact, marking something is drawing special attention to it > already. Yes, it's true that marking and flagging both draw attention to something. But "flag" is a bit stronger, especially if both are used in the same context (e.g. Dired), but for different things, and especially if the thing "flag" is used for (file deletion) is more serious. In any case, your argument is not with me. It's not I who chose "flag". My point is only that that's what Emacs does and has always done, and Emacs is quite consistent about it. See my previous mail. If someone (e.g. you) proposed to use only "mark" and never "flag", that would be OK. What's not OK, IMO, is to use both, but not use them in a consistent way. After Eli's change, we now have 2, and only 2, marks (`D' and `C') which we are calling "flags". It could be argued that there's something special about deleting. It's hard to argue that there's something special about copying and deleting (as opposed to renaming/moving and linking). > So "flag" is for me less clear. Why should "flag" be used for > "delete", why not "Delete" or "Mark delete"? See above. > Now note that the option "flag" is under the menu "Mark", so flag is a > mark, it is adding to confusion. It's in menu `Mark' because it is about marking, in general - flagging is a kind of marking. But `Flag' is a separate menu item from `Mark'. That item could have been called `Mark for Deletion'. But it wasn't. Emacs consistently uses "flag" for deletion - and only for deletion. In the case of the `Mark' menu, that makes each of the `Flag' items stand out from the `Mark' items. And rightfully so, as they all use `D'. They're all for deleting files - something to pay attention to. Would you have preferred this? Mark Unmark Mark for Deletion Mark Auto-save Files for Deletion Mark Backup Files for Deletion Mark Garbage Files for Deletion Mark Executables Mark Old Backups Mark Directories Mark Symlinks Unmark All Change Marks... That would have been OK, if a bit noisier and less readable. Again, I'm not the one who decided such things (long, long ago). > In my opinion, the Menu "Mark" should not have "flag", but rather > "Delete" or "Delete mark": >=20 > - Delete auto-save files > - Delete backup files > - Delete garbage files > - Delete by extension Not good. The action is NOT to delete anything. That's part of the point. This menu is only about marking various things in various ways. It makes no changes to files or the file system. The "flag" items are about deleting, but deleting is not their action. > or >=20 > - Mark to delete auto-save files > - Mark to delete backup files > - Mark to delete garbage files > - Mark to delete by extension >=20 > Those are clear to me in that sense. OK. Maybe file an enhancement request for that. I disagree that that's better, but I'm just one (other) user.=20 > Now these are not clear to me: >=20 > - Flag extension -- how that can be clear what it does? Sure that I > will find after some time what is meant, but I am saying, it is > confusing and not user friendly. >=20 > The Wordnet does not indicate that "flag" has the definition that you > want, in the manner to distinguish it from "mark". It says "provide > with a flag" and flag would be what? See above. It's English. If it's not understandable to some people then that's not great. But keep in mind that it is a common verb, and Dired has used it this way for decades (and Emacs has had lots of users for whom English is not the first language). > I will just put those definitions here down that could apply for some > user... I know what "flag" means. > So to flag in the meaning to provide with a flag, the Wordnet > definition gives me only that Try another dictionary. Ask (another) native English speaker. But the point is not that "flag" means what I pointed out. It's important that users can understand what's meant. So maybe someone (else) will agree to make a _wholesale_ change to all of the Dired descriptions, to never use "flag". Unless/until that happens, with Eli's change we have now moved from something consistent to something inconsistent. > I am just saying is not so easy to understand > with "flag". > With "mark" it is very easy to understand it: >=20 > Now the definition you wanted to squeeze out of the "flag" to draw > special attention to it, is actually under "mark" -- I speak only for > Wordnet. ... >=20 > to flag vs. to mark, those are synonyms. They are synonyms to some extent, in some contexts. Two different words are never completely synonymous. There are always some different connotations - nuances. > It is only in Emacs terminology that "flag" became something extra, No, it is not only in Emacs. Please look beyond Wordnet or, as I say, talk to another native English speaker about it. > however, it does not help the user to understand by reading from the > menu that "flag" means "to mark for deletion". I hear you. Someone else can decide whether to remove all use of "flag" from Dired because this was unclear to you. I have no problem with that, even though I think it would be ill-advised. What is not good is the inconsistency that was just introduced. But that's not the end of the world - it's just one small step backward.