From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#20322: 25.0.50; indent-tabs-mode should default to nil Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5aaab1b2-69f9-4c62-80ab-9d22d9767cdd@default> References: <<861tjn3069.fsf@yandex.ru> > <> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1429111879 10046 80.91.229.3 (15 Apr 2015 15:31:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 15:31:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 20322@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru To: rms@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 15 17:31:06 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YiPHN-0001A7-8f for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 17:31:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60965 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YiPHM-0000KU-G9 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 11:31:04 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43585) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YiPGV-0007yu-TK for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 11:30:16 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YiPGQ-0004EN-0L for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 11:30:11 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:39220) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YiPGP-0004E9-U5 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 11:30:05 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YiPGP-0006k9-9U for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 11:30:05 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 15:30:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20322 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 20322-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20322.142911176825837 (code B ref 20322); Wed, 15 Apr 2015 15:30:04 +0000 Original-Received: (at 20322) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Apr 2015 15:29:28 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57229 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YiPFn-0006ie-Lg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 11:29:28 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:31457) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YiPFl-0006iO-Ax for 20322@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 11:29:26 -0400 Original-Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t3FFTI6M025632 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 15 Apr 2015 15:29:18 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t3FFTHCi016448 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 15 Apr 2015 15:29:18 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t3FFTHkG018484; Wed, 15 Apr 2015 15:29:17 GMT In-Reply-To: <> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:101554 Archived-At: > Tabs make file smaller. I just did an experiment. In lread.c, M-x > untabify changed 139702 characters into 155402 characters, which is > 11% bigger. >=20 > For subr.el, it was smaller: 200817 characters became 209939, only > 4.5% bigger. However, files.el got 12% bigger. >=20 > If most of a git repository is text from various versions of files, > the repository is also likely to get around 10% bigger without tabs, > and now you're talking about 30 meg more. That's a consideration, certainly. But there are others - which is why we have an option for this. ;-) (FWIW, I've long turned off `indent-tabs-mode', personally.) Note that a (minor) problem for users can arise regardless of how a user sets the option value: copying and pasting existing code from a buffer where the option value was non-nil and where tab chars are thus used for indentation. When you paste a code snippet that you copied from Emacs (and perhaps modified) into a help question reply (email, StackExchange, whatever) - that is, you paste it into a non-Emacs environment - you can find that the receiving environment does not handle tab chars the way you might hope. I find myself "bitten" by this from time to time, even though I've pretty much learned the habit of using `untabify' first. (E.g, copy+yank to another buffer, untabify, then paste to the non-Emacs application.) Admittedly, this inconvenience is only minor. But it is also not obvious to some users what is going on (i.e., why they see what they see). FWIW, whether the default value gets changed or not is not important to me, as a user. I just wanted to mention this because I imagine that there is more and more use of snippets taken from Emacs buffers and pasted into other environments. If you forget to use `untabify' then you can find yourself reformatting the code in the destination environment - a bother, even if a minor one. And of course there are some users who might not ever become aware of `untabify' and who share code in non-Emacs media in order to help others. It is a (minor) annoyance to have to reformat pasted code, and some users might never figure out what is going on (tab chars are invisible). If the Emacs source code used only space chars for indenting then, yes, that code would occupy more space. But users copying and pasting it outside of Emacs would not be surprised by the strange indentation they sometimes get. And there is lots of 3rd-party code that is based on or derived from core Emacs code. Users copying 3rd-party code can thus be bitten by this gotcha also, even if the 3rd-party maintainer turns off `indent-tabs-mode' - if s?he does not use `untabify'. Something to think about perhaps, in any case.=09 [It is good that (emacs) `Just Space' mentions `untabify' along with `indent-tabs-mode'. It might be good for the Elisp manual too to mention `untabify' where it documents `indent-tabs-mode'.]