bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q

bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q

[Andreas Röhler]

  GNU Emacs 25.1.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.24.25) of 
2015-11-16

Emacs built from source at my

Debian 3.16.7-ckt11-1+deb8u5 (2015-10-09) i686 GNU/Linux

would start with errors due to Debian specific stuff probably.

A way around is to start with -Q and load init-file interactively.
However then saving options via customize isn't possible, which seems a bug.

Thanks,

Andreas

bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 13:27:29 +0100
> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@easy-emacs.de>
> 
> A way around is to start with -Q and load init-file interactively.
> However then saving options via customize isn't possible, which seems a bug.

No, it's a deliberate feature.  From the Emacs manual:

     If Emacs was invoked with the `-q' or `--no-init-file' options
  (*note Initial Options::), it will not let you save your customizations
  in your initialization file.  This is because saving customizations
  from such a session would wipe out all the other customizations you
  might have on your initialization file.

bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q

[Andreas Röhler]

  On 19.11.2015 16:55, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 13:27:29 +0100
>> From: Andreas Röhler<andreas.roehler@easy-emacs.de>
>>
>> A way around is to start with -Q and load init-file interactively.
>> However then saving options via customize isn't possible, which seems a bug.
> No, it's a deliberate feature.  From the Emacs manual:
>
>       If Emacs was invoked with the `-q' or `--no-init-file' options
>    (*note Initial Options::), it will not let you save your customizations
>    in your initialization file.  This is because saving customizations
>    from such a session would wipe out all the other customizations you
>    might have on your initialization file.
>

Hmm, maybe not link saving and wiping out?
What is the rational for theses connection?

What about having these separated and a command "clear customizations"?

bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:24:23 +0100
> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@easy-emacs.de>
> CC: 21959@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> >       If Emacs was invoked with the `-q' or `--no-init-file' options
> >    (*note Initial Options::), it will not let you save your customizations
> >    in your initialization file.  This is because saving customizations
> >    from such a session would wipe out all the other customizations you
> >    might have on your initialization file.
> >
> 
> Hmm, maybe not link saving and wiping out?
> What is the rational for theses connection?

AFAIU, Customize cannot _update_ your settings (which might include
customizations of more than one feature) without _loading_ them from
your ~/.emacs first.  All it can do is to write out the few (usually,
just one) customizations you did in the "emacs -Q" session, replacing
whatever was there before.  This effectively "wipes out" what you had
there.

> What about having these separated and a command "clear customizations"?

Not sure how that would help; see above.

I think a way forward would be to teach Customize to _add_
customizations rather than _replace_ them.  If that's possible.
Patches welcome.

bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q

[Andreas Röhler]

  On 20.11.2015 09:24, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:24:23 +0100
>> From: Andreas Röhler<andreas.roehler@easy-emacs.de>
>> CC: 21959@debbugs.gnu.org
>>
>>>        If Emacs was invoked with the `-q' or `--no-init-file' options
>>>     (*note Initial Options::), it will not let you save your customizations
>>>     in your initialization file.  This is because saving customizations
>>>     from such a session would wipe out all the other customizations you
>>>     might have on your initialization file.
>>>
>> Hmm, maybe not link saving and wiping out?
>> What is the rational for theses connection?
> AFAIU, Customize cannot _update_ your settings (which might include
> customizations of more than one feature) without _loading_ them from
> your ~/.emacs first.  All it can do is to write out the few (usually,
> just one) customizations you did in the "emacs -Q" session, replacing
> whatever was there before.  This effectively "wipes out" what you had
> there.

Hmm, editing a file doesn't require to load it before.

While understanding it's easier to write a list down which was loaded:
Here it must open the custom-file as plain-text and to replace the 
section in question - if any.


> Patches welcome.
>

[ ... ]

Would the disclaimer signed be sufficient WRT copyright-issues?

bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q

[Andreas Röhler]

  On 20.11.2015 10:05, Andreas Röhler wrote:
>  On 20.11.2015 09:24, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>>> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:24:23 +0100
>>> From: Andreas Röhler<andreas.roehler@easy-emacs.de>
>>> CC: 21959@debbugs.gnu.org
>>>
>>>>        If Emacs was invoked with the `-q' or `--no-init-file' options
>>>>     (*note Initial Options::), it will not let you save your 
>>>> customizations
>>>>     in your initialization file.  This is because saving 
>>>> customizations
>>>>     from such a session would wipe out all the other customizations 
>>>> you
>>>>     might have on your initialization file.
>>>>
>>> Hmm, maybe not link saving and wiping out?
>>> What is the rational for theses connection?
>> AFAIU, Customize cannot _update_ your settings (which might include
>> customizations of more than one feature) without _loading_ them from
>> your ~/.emacs first.  All it can do is to write out the few (usually,
>> just one) customizations you did in the "emacs -Q" session, replacing
>> whatever was there before.  This effectively "wipes out" what you had
>> there.
>

Emacs was started -Q, but init-file and custom-file loaded manually 
afterwards.

bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:53:26 +0100
> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@easy-emacs.de>
> CC: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> 
> Emacs was started -Q, but init-file and custom-file loaded manually 
> afterwards.

What is the value of user-init-file?  If it's nil, Emacs doesn't know
you loaded your init-file.

bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:05:03 +0100
> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@easy-emacs.de>
> CC: 21959@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> >> What is the rational for theses connection?
> > AFAIU, Customize cannot _update_ your settings (which might include
> > customizations of more than one feature) without _loading_ them from
> > your ~/.emacs first.  All it can do is to write out the few (usually,
> > just one) customizations you did in the "emacs -Q" session, replacing
> > whatever was there before.  This effectively "wipes out" what you had
> > there.
> 
> Hmm, editing a file doesn't require to load it before.

But this isn't editing.  AFAIU, Customize creates a
'custom-set-variables' section from internal Lisp data structures,
while distinguishing changes done by the user from other kinds of
changes, like those done by original ~/.emacs settings.

> While understanding it's easier to write a list down which was loaded:
> Here it must open the custom-file as plain-text and to replace the 
> section in question - if any.

I don't think it's that simple, see above; but I might be wrong.

> > Patches welcome.
> >
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
> Would the disclaimer signed be sufficient WRT copyright-issues?

IANAL, sorry.  I hope someone else will be able to answer that.

bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q

[Random832]

On 2015-11-20, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> AFAIU, Customize cannot _update_ your settings (which might include
> customizations of more than one feature) without _loading_ them from
> your ~/.emacs first.

Why can't it "load" it (into a "saved but not set" state, or where the default
value is considered "set and not saved") without _applying_ the settings, by
simply reading from your .emacs when you first run customize?

bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Random832 <random832@fastmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:43:32 +0000 (UTC)
> 
> On 2015-11-20, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> > AFAIU, Customize cannot _update_ your settings (which might include
> > customizations of more than one feature) without _loading_ them from
> > your ~/.emacs first.
> 
> Why can't it "load" it (into a "saved but not set" state, or where the default
> value is considered "set and not saved") without _applying_ the settings, by
> simply reading from your .emacs when you first run customize?

Patches welcome.

bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> A way around is to start with -Q and load init-file interactively.
>> However then saving options via customize isn't possible, which seems a bug.
>
> No, it's a deliberate feature.  From the Emacs manual:
>
>      If Emacs was invoked with the `-q' or `--no-init-file' options
>   (*note Initial Options::), it will not let you save your customizations
>   in your initialization file.  This is because saving customizations
>   from such a session would wipe out all the other customizations you
>   might have on your initialization file.

(I'm going through old bug reports that unfortunately weren't resolved
at the time.)

When the user has used "-Q", I think the intention is to use not affect
customisations.  If we open up for saving customisations done in "emacs
-Q", that opens up a can of worms where we may be overwriting some
customisations the user has done in a "real" session, because Emacs is
set up quite differently when not using "-Q".

So I don't think we should do this, and I'm therefore closing this bug
report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no