From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#20707: [PROPOSED PATCH] Use curved quoting in C-generated errors Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 09:20:26 -0700 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <557863CA.8060609@cs.ucla.edu> References: <20150606155445.GE3418@acm.fritz.box> <557337CD.60706@cs.ucla.edu> <20150606205023.GA3862@acm.fritz.box> <55738BA9.7050104@cs.ucla.edu> <20150608171804.GA3184@acm.fritz.box> <55768D82.3040509@cs.ucla.edu> <20150609133423.GA3735@acm.fritz.box> <5577516B.9020709@cs.ucla.edu> <20150609224616.GC3735@acm.fritz.box> <557779E9.3050409@cs.ucla.edu> <20150610133931.GA3632@acm.fritz.box> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1433953292 7240 80.91.229.3 (10 Jun 2015 16:21:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 16:21:32 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 20707@debbugs.gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 10 18:21:20 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2ikg-0005E7-8i for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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Wed, 10 Jun 2015 16:21:03 +0000 Original-Received: (at 20707) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jun 2015 16:20:33 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47388 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2ijw-0007DQ-35 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Jun 2015 12:20:32 -0400 Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:39922) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2ijt-0007DG-Cq for 20707@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Jun 2015 12:20:30 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB17160743; Wed, 10 Jun 2015 09:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id zHLq_UI4OXhb; Wed, 10 Jun 2015 09:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C2DF160746; Wed, 10 Jun 2015 09:20:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id g13RQ6n-B8k3; Wed, 10 Jun 2015 09:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0E2A8160743; Wed, 10 Jun 2015 09:20:27 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 In-Reply-To: <20150610133931.GA3632@acm.fritz.box> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:103790 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie wrote: > You want to > promote difficult-to-type and problematic-to-display characters to the > status of standard "working characters". The problems aren't that serious. Display problems are limited to obsole= te=20 environments that hardly anybody uses because they're so awful, and even = there=20 we have workarounds. And typing problems aren't a big deal in my Emacs=20 environment: for left and right single quotes I normally type a single=20 keystroke, without any control or shift or meta keys. (This is because I= use=20 Electric Quote mode.) Other typing environments are also available that = work=20 nearly as well (using Alt-[ and Alt-] for the two characters, if your Alt= key=20 works). I'm not expecting everyone to use these keyboard methods right away. The= re will=20 be a transition period, and perhaps other, better methods of dealing this= will=20 emerge. However, there should be no obstacle to people who do want to us= e those=20 methods. > I have a feeling you're intending to argue for making the use of curly > quotes in our Lisp files standard. Yes, of course. It should be normal to type quotes as themselves in doc=20 strings. It's basic WYSIWYG. > Anyway, here's another idea for making curly quotes in lisp code > optional: an escaped 0x27 or 0x60 in a string should be translated by t= he > reader to the appropriate ASCII or curly quote, depending on the user's > configuration. So a doc string might contain this: > > \`foo-bar\' I considered doing that, but there were problems. First, it would make d= oc=20 strings harder to read. For example, this: "Setting this attribute will also set the \`:family\', \`:foundry\', \`:width\', \`:height\', \`:weight\', and \`:slant\' attributes." is harder to read than this: "Setting this attribute will also set the =E2=80=98:family=E2=80=99, =E2=80= =98:foundry=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98:width=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98:height=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98:weight=E2=80= =99, and =E2=80=98:slant=E2=80=99 attributes." Second, the new escapes would cause mental overload with similar=20 already-existing uses (e.g., ?\`, "\\`"). Third, and most serious, is th= at the=20 new escapes would mean that string literals are not constants but are ins= tead=20 expressions whose values depend on runtime context, and this would affect= =20 everything: how the byte-compiler works, for example. To avoid the most serious problem, I considered a simpler idea: have the = Lisp=20 reader treat \` and \' as curved single quotes in strings. However, this= still=20 has the basic problem of being hard to read. It is needless work to add = a=20 hard-to-read and nearly-ubiquitous feature merely to cater to obsolete=20 platforms. It's simpler to use quote characters to represent themselves. > Again, I think the only justification for the change you've given is th= at > you personally don't like the look It's not just me personally. The rest of the world has moved on. At thi= s point=20 when outsiders look at Emacs they see mysterious and inappropriate and=20 off-putting quoting. And this sort of thing has been happening for a whi= le.=20 See, for example: http://www.trilithium.com/johan/2005/07/quotation-marks/