From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#20322: 25.0.50; indent-tabs-mode should default to nil Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 18:55:48 +0300 Message-ID: <55312D04.5070209@yandex.ru> References: <861tjn3069.fsf@yandex.ru> <552D20B6.8030005@yandex.ru> <83mw2abul3.fsf@gnu.org> <552D34BC.4090806@yandex.ru> <83h9sibt0q.fsf@gnu.org> <552D7796.2090109@yandex.ru> <83vbgx9xtl.fsf@gnu.org> <55307468.8070307@yandex.ru> <83y4lr8bbf.fsf@gnu.org> <553115E2.6050809@yandex.ru> <83iocu95yu.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1429286186 32139 80.91.229.3 (17 Apr 2015 15:56:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 15:56:26 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 20322@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 17 17:56:16 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj8cp-0007X5-0Q for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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Fri, 17 Apr 2015 08:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([82.102.93.54]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ax10sm15191107wjc.26.2015.04.17.08.55.49 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Apr 2015 08:55:50 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:36.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/36.0 In-Reply-To: <83iocu95yu.fsf@gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:101631 Archived-At: On 04/17/2015 05:36 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > This argument goes both ways, you know. You're welcome to use it against myself when an opportunity rises. I don't believe it's the case here. > And no, it's not only my experience, as I mentioned more than once in > this thread. Sure, but one's circle of acquaintances is not the best metric. > Are _you_ open to leaving C and C++ at their current defaults? What > would it take to convince you doing that? A decent statistical analysis of the current active C and C++ projects would do it, if it favors tabs (or at least doesn't favor spaces too heavily), as well as an obvious-enough way for the users to change the indent-tabs-mode value in those modes. > I gave you mine. I've seen, and still see, a lot of C/C++ code > written by others, and they all mix spaces and tabs. While GitHub is not an ideal sample, it's certainly bigger than your sample, don't you agree? And a lot of corporations have been migrating their libre software projects to GitHub in the recent years. > True. But changing long-lived defaults always annoys people; you can > see evidence to that on help-gnu-emacs almost every day. So we > shouldn't change them without a very good reason. And I don't see one > in this case. Considering the size of the Emacs user base, one might say the evidence on help-gnu-emacs is pretty underwhelming (or else we'd be drowning in it). > I think you underestimate the widespread use of Google and questions > asked on stack-overflow and such likes. People simply collect > snippets from there and paste them into their .emacs. Problem solved. Yeah, I guess they do. But that's definitely not ideal. > But there's nothing wrong with this particular default. It doesn't > reduce any functionality. Users that aren't annoyed enough will learn > to live with it; those with higher motivation will discover how to > change that soon enough. There's no real problem here. Unlike other > arguments we had about changing defaults (font-lock, colors, and menus > come to mind), this one does not affect any functionality at all. The indentation style is one of the obvious bikeshedding topics. I suspect a significant fraction of Emacs users try to make it just right in their config from the start. If you think that that value is not a problem, you shouldn't object to changing it to appease the majority either.