From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#20322: 25.0.50; indent-tabs-mode should default to nil Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 17:17:06 +0300 Message-ID: <553115E2.6050809@yandex.ru> References: <861tjn3069.fsf@yandex.ru> <552D20B6.8030005@yandex.ru> <83mw2abul3.fsf@gnu.org> <552D34BC.4090806@yandex.ru> <83h9sibt0q.fsf@gnu.org> <552D7796.2090109@yandex.ru> <83vbgx9xtl.fsf@gnu.org> <55307468.8070307@yandex.ru> <83y4lr8bbf.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1429280299 24587 80.91.229.3 (17 Apr 2015 14:18:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 14:18:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 20322@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 17 16:18:09 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj75t-0002Se-2t for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 16:18:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41605 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj75s-0003Of-67 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:18:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56977) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj75p-0003OY-3p for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:18:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj75m-000144-Cn for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:18:05 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:41077) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj75m-000140-54 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:18:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj75l-0004Wz-P7 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:18:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Dmitry Gutov Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 14:18:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20322 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 20322-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20322.142928023817313 (code B ref 20322); Fri, 17 Apr 2015 14:18:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 20322) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2015 14:17:18 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59086 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj753-0004VA-Qh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:17:18 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-f176.google.com ([209.85.212.176]:34880) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yj752-0004Uq-3Q for 20322@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:17:16 -0400 Original-Received: by widdi4 with SMTP id di4so23579537wid.0 for <20322@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 07:17:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EyJLzPZPjXQXQ/8faVPxkLii3DYoW5kugC4pS497Z2A=; b=F2/2ZXs055YcAwbpjyECA4rcTP3MAkS4WHEX4gNxBoX86F0j2SiKrn7GYHXgQ1xfQG rrFN/5LIgLzwyLYna81ewmFk33Kc0V/onJc0Q3tZlvFivaZzjcjhNRdpfB+WyS6mTTsR Z8O8Z7cnI7sscOzY4dWpQsbAr3eWpoBdsKepyE+wjRerKt86B4YYFhxL16ZgI/YZJSJu +CVKuCfRy7X+cAD0oWzHwP8fV62lfO8fGs02gWEcBfgLPn1ka3MxV8qYkbF69vxBoTAR pw6ZW7m3Ral7g3z9gWQ/o+jWvvgfh8U8Gxye5Mppdh4F1eQubCMuKH6VsExV2/gwSN35 o+pA== X-Received: by 10.194.103.67 with SMTP id fu3mr6617981wjb.69.1429280230235; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 07:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([82.102.93.54]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ch2sm2844080wib.18.2015.04.17.07.17.08 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Apr 2015 07:17:09 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:36.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/36.0 In-Reply-To: <83y4lr8bbf.fsf@gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:101623 Archived-At: On 04/17/2015 10:26 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Yes, I know that. I'm saying that this default doesn't bother me, as > long as the modes that I care about still default to non-nil. It seems that you won't object to changes as long as they don't affect your our experience, even if you'd just have to change one line in your init.el. I mentioned the default value because it's a technical consideration. > I meant "need" as in "most users of that language already use spaces". So, you're open to considering C and C++ in this context, too? > I don't consider GitHub to be a representative sample for this matter. Maybe not, but it's a sample we can research. And Emacs could do worse than become more friendly to the modern-ish audience. Do you have a better sample in mind? > I don't see any complications. Doesn't everyone have their own hooks > for every language they use, anyway? I know I do, since almost the > first day I started using Emacs. That hook is the place where users > could customize the variable, if they don't the defaults. The members of those "everyone" shouldn't be bothered with a change in one tiny default value anyway. I think you're overestimating the savvy-ness of an average Emacs user. Not every beginner is fine with writing Elisp (some spend years without doing so), and the more effort a user's first steps in Emacs take, the more likely they are to settle for something else, because they haven't yet been properly exposed to Emacs's benefits yet. That's why I think the default are important, and that they shouldn't take the entrenched user base so much into account. > See above; and it doesn't have to be a lambda function, of course. > Mine has a name (my-c-stuff, if you want to know) and a doc string. I also use hooks quite a bit in my init script. > We are talking about programmers, for whom having a mode hook is not a > problem. Not necessarily Emacs Lisp programmers, though. > I'm actually guessing they already have such a hook anyway; > I cannot see how one can use a programming-language mode without a lot > of customizations, and the place to do that is in a mode hook. This > is normal, routine practice in Emacs. The user options (and the Customize interface; I think we haven't given up on it yet) should cover the core of what a user might want to change. Here's the sum total of my current ruby-mode tweaks. One `eval-after-load', but no custom functions in ruby-mode-hook: (add-hook 'ruby-mode-hook 'flycheck-mode) (add-hook 'ruby-mode-hook 'robe-mode) (eval-after-load 'ruby-mode '(progn (define-key ruby-mode-map (kbd "C-c :") 'ruby-toggle-hash-syntax) (require 'ruby-end))) Plus a few installed packages, some of which use `add-hook' at the top level. I do have one related `add-hook' with a lambda commented out currently, but it's also tiny, and the above provide a satisfactory experience already. > I gave you my personal statistics on that: most of them use tabs. And > I personally get annoyed whenever a project asks me to untabify my > submissions (but abide, of course). Untabifying (or tabifying) should happen automatically, via project-local settings. There's even a cross-editor specification (as well as an Emacs package) for this: http://editorconfig.org/