From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jarek Czekalski Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#16015: 24.3.50; newline indents in shell script mode Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 09:24:25 +0100 Message-ID: <529AF239.1020002@poczta.onet.pl> References: <529A602F.1020403@poczta.onet.pl> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1385886252 21735 80.91.229.3 (1 Dec 2013 08:24:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 08:24:12 +0000 (UTC) To: 16015@debbugs.gnu.org Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Dec 01 09:24:18 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Vn2K9-0001v8-FG for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 01 Dec 2013 09:24:17 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54713 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vn2K8-0007q2-Ms for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 01 Dec 2013 03:24:16 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54326) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vn2K0-0007p6-91 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Dec 2013 03:24:13 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vn2Jv-0007oZ-8k for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Dec 2013 03:24:08 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:38490) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vn2Ju-0007oT-Tu for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Dec 2013 03:24:03 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vn2Ju-0006sT-76 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Dec 2013 03:24:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <529A602F.1020403@poczta.onet.pl> Resent-From: Jarek Czekalski Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 08:24:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16015 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug Original-Received: via spool by 16015-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16015.138588622426411 (code B ref 16015); Sun, 01 Dec 2013 08:24:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 16015) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Dec 2013 08:23:44 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52509 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vn2Jb-0006ru-9M for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Dec 2013 03:23:43 -0500 Original-Received: from smtpo56.poczta.onet.pl ([213.180.142.187]:53496) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vn2JT-0006ra-Ub for 16015@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Dec 2013 03:23:38 -0500 Original-Received: from [192.168.17.5] (cj.e-siemianowice.pl [95.215.234.30]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jarekczek@poczta.onet.pl) by smtp.poczta.onet.pl (Onet) with ESMTPSA id 3dXMss4ddBzZCWYr for <16015@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 1 Dec 2013 09:23:28 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=poczta.onet.pl; s=2011; t=1385886209; bh=K/b3ZaKwJqVmBJru21s/AiHClBuWowxLKblHFscjpZU=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=WyUGIGKbhd6WJZMYpUEWay60o3bLQIYCPlN0tk7S0LHqIgtW1ClRdu49rJm1GVUTH SOyfPwvz0hHBBcO5tm8MU3mfdHP4f5391RJmBGFsDy78vHwuInc4IgM+x+9oclPwkF 7d7m6p2Oe65OGRcH39aViV3TYqu9WeTIejuIcIRI= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.1 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:81177 Archived-At: Let me be a standard user first. I fire the "newline" command, not "newline-and-indent". The default -Q behaviour should do what is written in the documentation of the product. Now it is not. This is a bug. Now a longer background, I wished I didn't have to write it. I know long discussions about "Default behaviour of RET." and "electric-indent-mode: abolition of `newline' function is not the Right Thing.". Their outcome was as follows: 1. The author of the change wanted to make programming modes indent on RET by default 2. They did it in a wrong way Nobody argues with 1. Many people have objections about removing the functionality of the "newline" command, that is point 2. I also didn't object until I found out, that you did it by default. Please do the change in an acceptable way. There were many suggestions how to make RET indent without achieving unreasonable documentation contradiction. The least acceptable fix IMO is placing the following string in the docs, presumably at the beginning: "newline is a deprecated command and now it is an alias of newline-and-indent in programming modes. If you want the old newline behaviour please use ... instead." The other acceptable way (still not very good) is to introduce a new function newline-without-indent, because then it's easy to place it in the docs (the first suggestion) and find by a user through C-h f newline. A good solution may be found in the threads I mentioned. One of them suggested by Richard Stallman: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-10/msg00701.html Supported by Stephen J. Turnbull http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-10/msg00732.html And here is the summary of the discussion which is what I described in points 1 and 2, by Josh: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-10/msg00724.html And everybody knows that the strongest opposer to the new change was the author of the thread, Alan Mackenzie. But I always prefer to show that the author was not the only believer. Seems like you ignore these people's opinions, but at least you should not ignore this bug report. The first paragraph proves that this is a bug. Are you able to deny it? Jarek