From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David De La Harpe Golden Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#8402: Acknowledgement (24.0.50; Hex colors are not rendered correctly on OS X (Cocoa)) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 20:59:43 +0100 Message-ID: <4DC4532F.8010204@harpegolden.net> References: <8591B978-B263-4A6B-B65E-B18B45C76CFD@gmail.com> <5F0512AE-418C-4830-A4B5-BA06140A4CD2@sanityinc.com> <878vvhk9zj.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <4DC185A8.7080907@harpegolden.net> <5EDBC6E6-C26F-4D4A-A05B-EB2B7F8F657C@sanityinc.com> <4DC25C7E.1080702@harpegolden.net> <641B1425-8895-4989-B3D4-C288EBC2A3F9@sanityinc.com> <4DC28668.10609@harpegolden.net> <4DC2A0FB.7080209@harpegolden.net> <4DC32A5A.2090006@harpegolden.net> <617DC9CC-3396-4F7E-B290-67449B33DC39@sanityinc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1304712022 31344 80.91.229.12 (6 May 2011 20:00:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 20:00:22 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 8402@debbugs.gnu.org, Erik Andrejko , Chong Yidong To: Steve Purcell Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri May 06 22:00:16 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QIRC8-0005V0-Bn for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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Fri, 06 May 2011 20:00:03 +0000 Original-Received: (at 8402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 May 2011 19:59:54 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QIRBq-0004TI-7r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2011 15:59:54 -0400 Original-Received: from harpegolden.net ([65.99.215.13]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QIRBn-0004T5-9J for 8402@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2011 15:59:52 -0400 Original-Received: from [87.198.47.56] (87-198-47-56.ptr.magnet.ie [87.198.47.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "David De La Harpe Golden", Issuer "David De La Harpe Golden Personal CA rev 3" (verified OK)) by harpegolden.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AEDAC68413; Fri, 6 May 2011 20:59:44 +0100 (IST) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110402 Icedove/3.1.9 In-Reply-To: <617DC9CC-3396-4F7E-B290-67449B33DC39@sanityinc.com> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Resent-Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 16:00:03 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:46294 Archived-At: On 06/05/11 08:00, Steve Purcell wrote: > The poster child app for comparisons is any web browser, No, that's the one kind of app that I consider invalid for fair comparison, as standards-compliant browsers are simply required to use sRGB by default, regardless of any platform-specific conventions. > I'd hope that Digital Color Meter displays about-to-go-to-device > values; I presume that those color values are the important ones, > since all correctly calibrated devices will display those colors > identically. Uh, no, devices can have all sorts of gamut, color values about to go to the device would be in a post-any-software-transform pre-any-hardware-LUT-transform form, that may or may not coincide with sRGB. Think of how much extra you can pay for a "wide gamut" display capable of colors well outside sRGB [1] - and how annoyed you'd be if your OS wasn't sending them. > In other words, the system's color picker yields hex colors which, > when put in a web page, show up as the desired color. I'd na=C3=AFvely > expect every app to work like this. I still don't know exactly what DigitalColor Meter is doing. But maybe it actually takes steps to always report in sRGB so that it reliably gives the same value [s]RGB value for the same color shown via different devices. That would kinda make sense, though it would mean you'd presumably get an error or clipped answers (or maybe it would switch to scRGB [2] or something) on wide-gamut displays. Though it is does seem strange they'd make the system color tool report in sRGB if they're also telling apps to use Apple Generic RGB, or at least not offer values in both in it (AFAICS, having seen a screnshot, it's got a dropdown list of a few spaces to report in) and make it clear what space its "RGB" really is (by the sounds of it, sRGB...), but OTOH, maybe it's geared mostly to web dev needs in the first place - I expect graphics pros are more likely to use photoshop [3]. i.e. the DigitalColor Meter utility might just be doing what browser users, particularly the web developer types likely to use it, naively expect. > In the interests of fairness, > I'll also note that TextMate (an extremely popular non-free editor on > OS X) interprets color values in its themes as being in the Apple > Generic RGB color space, so I guess internally it's using > colorFromCalibratedRed, just like Emacs. It does sound to me like TextMate is just following the Word Of Apple like iterm2, then. And emacs is after all an app in the exact same class as TextMate [3] > Nonetheless, I think the browsers are getting it right by doing what > users expect, Er. I think that's sorta the wrong way round, what's happening is that browsers are starting to generate user expectations for other apps - like yours. Browsers, again, are flat-out required to use sRGB [5]. Web folk of course are a major group of emacs users, so it's IMO worth catering to their needs. But I'm not sure it's sufficient reason to switch the default on its own, more of an argument for adding the switching capability previously discussed. Though if emacs were to wholeheartedly adopt a standard interpretation of intraemacs color strings on all color-management-capable platforms, then Apple Generic RGB would obviously be a hopeless basis (though could still be provided for with a prefix, say, "AppleGenericRGB:r/g/b"). Perhaps it could be semiseriously argued that emacs, as it is capable of acting as a quite usable web browser via w3 or emacs-w3m, should use sRGB and the web named-colors values. [1] http://www.eizo.com/global/products/coloredge/cg221/index.html [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScRGB [3]=20 http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2008/02/make_photoshop_sample_colors_outside= _the_a.html [4] TextMate is even the first text editor in quite a while to do=20 anything particularly interesting from the emacs community perspective -=20 right now, you have to add the sorta-kludgey "mumamo" found in the=20 "nxhtml" suite for emacs to catch up with it in some areas. [5] http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/#rgb-color