From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: xah lee Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 00:42:19 -0700 Message-ID: <4B9651B7-B2B6-451C-BBCB-A35F488BA2B5@xahlee.org> References: <4891F6BC.8010505@gmail.com> <871w19utma.GNU's_Not_Unix!%yavor@gnu.org> Reply-To: xah lee , 631@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1217578070 13912 80.91.229.12 (1 Aug 2008 08:07:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 08:07:50 +0000 (UTC) Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, 631@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, rms@gnu.org To: Yavor Doganov Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 01 10:08:38 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KOpga-0006E3-Iq for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 10:08:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59536 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KOpfg-00012H-0A for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:07:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KOpfZ-0000zd-O1 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:07:25 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KOpfY-0000xl-Gd for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:07:24 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=45431 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KOpfY-0000xR-Bj for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:07:24 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu ([138.23.92.77]:34393) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KOpfY-0007yU-2S for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:07:24 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu (rzlab.ucr.edu [127.0.0.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id m7187L10015129; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 01:07:21 -0700 Original-Received: (from debbugs@localhost) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id m717o6Ie009548; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 00:50:06 -0700 X-Loop: don@donarmstrong.com Resent-From: xah lee Resent-To: bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 07:50:06 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: don@donarmstrong.com X-Emacs-PR-Message: report 631 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 631-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B631.12175766277988 (code B ref 631); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 07:50:06 +0000 Original-Received: (at 631) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Aug 2008 07:43:47 +0000 Original-Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.195]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id m717hh2d007975 for <631@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 00:43:44 -0700 Original-Received: from [192.168.1.4] (c-24-6-97-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.6.97.120]) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrus1) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MKpCa-1KOpIU2ba0-0004dM; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 03:43:40 -0400 In-Reply-To: <871w19utma.GNU's_Not_Unix!%yavor@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19gl0XYBfB41awV266oaIuReOE+R89to4011ej Ck4QGyRhgVBszovlgnuVsxd00PbSGXEDo4CdTc84mH5+A39zPw 6jCEz932LxRnBy3GpdKLg== X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) Resent-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:07:24 -0400 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:18952 Archived-At: Lennart Borgman (gmail) wrote: =C2=ABI think both the menus and the help command should reflect the =20 actual keyboard labeling (for a standard keyboard on the used OS).=C2=BB On Jul 31, 2008, at 11:39 PM, Yavor Doganov wrote: =C2=AB IMHO this is close to impossible, since GNU/Linux runs on a variety =20 (at least 10) architectures, including archaic and modern machines =20 that have vastly different keyboards. So there are many "standard =20 keyboards" for the OS GNU/Linux, also for the various free variants =20 of BSD. =C2=BB Microsoft Windows and GNU/Linux systems, together has about 95% =20 market share of all computing systems. Their keyboard is typically PC =20= keyboard, which has i estimate 99.9% market share world wide. Apple's =20= computers use their own Keyboard but also has Alt and Ctrl printed on =20= the keys. So, practically speaking, this wouldn't effect those ~0.1% machines =20 that emacs supports. For these users, typically they are advanced =20 programers and they know what they are doing. (for example, if they =20 want to browse the web, use a particular programing language, game, =20 or software, they will typically find those not supported or under =20 supported on their platform, but it is well expected.) Yavor wrote: =C2=AB "M-" existed since about forever; wiping it out will do more harm =20 than good. If a new Emacs user has problems understanding it and =20 finding the right key on her keyboard, she surely will have much more =20= problems with other Emacs features, let alone more complicated =20 concepts and advanced usage. Also, you should not consider only the Emacs manual. Think of the =20 tens or hundreds of manuals of add-on packages, non-Emacs packages =20 (like Texinfo), and knowledge base like the mailing lists or sites =20 like the Emacs Wiki. Changing something as fundamental as this for =20 no apparent benefit is a bad idea. IMHO. =C2=BB I think you are right that to do this completely would be near =20 impossible, because that's over-riding some 25 or so years of emacs =20 history. However, i think the benefit still outweight the negatives. Also, changes that are few order of magnitude happens in commericial =20 world often. A good example is Apple computer's switch from Motorola =20 chip to PPC chip ~1995, and Mac OS to OSX ~2001, and PPC chip to =20 Intel chip ~2006. Some of these changes maintained some level of compatibility, but in =20 general it wiped out several years of accumulated code, =20 documentations, and world wide user expectations on how these =20 software worked. Same happens in Microsoft's products. These =20 commercial corps do that in order to survive. Emacs does not have a survival problem, at least not in the sense of =20 commercial software. Emacs also have small number developers, most on =20= a voluntary basis. I htink the effort required in this change is =20 relatively small, the benefit is arguably good because it reduces the =20= number one complaint people have about emacs, namely being difficult =20 to use or learn. The issue, about the impact of this manual change, on past emacs =20 related documents, esoteric systems, and old emac user's =20 expectations, is neglectable i think, because software systems =20 changes all the time with accumulated baggage. For a OpenSource =20 example, Perl went from perl4 to a incompatible perl5 starting in =20 1993, and it went on to thrive in the dot com era (~1998). The proposed change doesn't actually effect elisp code. It is =20 primarly esthetic in nature. There's a large thread discussing this issue, at: Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What does 'run' do in cperl-mode? http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.help/browse_frm/thread/=20 5b81fcfd40d1f4ca/ After the first 5 or so messages, the rest 60 or so is about =20 discussing M- vs Alt+ issue. The debate is somewhat heated, but i think it hasn't degerated into =20 bad usenet flame feast. Most disagree with the change. If would be =20 great if those of you interested in the issue have a peek there. Xah =E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/ =E2=98=84