bug#4363: 23.1.50; fullscreen (-mode) almost fullscreen

bug#4363: 23.1.50; fullscreen (-mode) almost fullscreen

[Ulrich Neumerkel]

--text follows this line--

Please write in English if possible, because the Emacs maintainers
usually do not have translators to read other languages for them.

Your bug report will be posted to the emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org mailing list.

Please describe exactly what actions triggered the bug
and the precise symptoms of the bug:

With

(set-frame-parameter () 'fullscreen 'maximized)
(set-frame-parameter () 'fullscreen nil)

allow to nicely enable/disable what might become a fullscreen-mode.

There are still some details missing for a perfect fullscreen mode:

Windowmanagers still put a titlebar on the fullscreen window.  This can
be avoided by setting the Motif nodecoration hint.  This works in Gnome,
KDE, and many windowmanagers.

Using --without-toolkit-scroll-bars with the scrollbar on the left, the
window should be shifted a couple of pixels to the left.  This helps to
avoid the unclickable and irritating no man's land between the left
screen border and the clickable scrollbar.  Otherwise using the
scrollbar is more difficult as mouse movements must be very precise
horizontally - vertical precision would suffice.  What I do here is
either to use a negative geometry to avoid that space or I manually
reposition that window.

Since many windowmanagers do make difficulties here it might be simpler
to perform that shifting within the emacs frame.

Within Gnome, switching with Alt-TAB between windows causes irritating
flicker with an Emacs fullscreen present.


In GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit)
 of 2009-09-06 on gupu2
Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.10603000
configured using `configure  '--without-toolkit-scroll-bars' '--prefix' '/opt/gupu/emacs-git''

bug#4363: 23.1.50; fullscreen (-mode) almost fullscreen

[Jan Djärv]

Ulrich Neumerkel skrev:
> --text follows this line--
> 
> Please write in English if possible, because the Emacs maintainers
> usually do not have translators to read other languages for them.
> 
> Your bug report will be posted to the emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org mailing list.
> 
> Please describe exactly what actions triggered the bug
> and the precise symptoms of the bug:
> 
> With
> 
> (set-frame-parameter () 'fullscreen 'maximized)
> (set-frame-parameter () 'fullscreen nil)
> 
> allow to nicely enable/disable what might become a fullscreen-mode.
> 
> There are still some details missing for a perfect fullscreen mode:
> 
> Windowmanagers still put a titlebar on the fullscreen window.  This can
> be avoided by setting the Motif nodecoration hint.  This works in Gnome,
> KDE, and many windowmanagers.

(set-frame-parameter () 'fullscreen 'fullboth)

Note that fullscreen is all done by the window manager.  Emacs tells the 
window manager to put the window in fullscreen and the window manager does all 
the rest.

> 
> Using --without-toolkit-scroll-bars with the scrollbar on the left, the
> window should be shifted a couple of pixels to the left.  This helps to
> avoid the unclickable and irritating no man's land between the left
> screen border and the clickable scrollbar.  Otherwise using the
> scrollbar is more difficult as mouse movements must be very precise
> horizontally - vertical precision would suffice.  What I do here is
> either to use a negative geometry to avoid that space or I manually
> reposition that window.
> 
> Since many windowmanagers do make difficulties here it might be simpler
> to perform that shifting within the emacs frame.

This all depends on your screen resolution and on the font used.  Please 
provide screen shots.  Note that we do not reposition the window, the window 
manager does that.

> 
> Within Gnome, switching with Alt-TAB between windows causes irritating
> flicker with an Emacs fullscreen present.
> 

Irritating flicker in Emacs or the other windows?  If the other windows, there 
is nothing we can do.

	Jan D.

bug#4363: 23.1.50; fullscreen (-mode) almost fullscreen

[Ulrich Neumerkel]

Jan Djaerv schrieb:
>Ulrich Neumerkel skrev:
>> Windowmanagers still put a titlebar on the fullscreen window.  This can
>> be avoided by setting the Motif nodecoration hint.  This works in Gnome,
>> KDE, and many windowmanagers.
>
>(set-frame-parameter () 'fullscreen nil)
>
>Note that fullscreen is all done by the window manager.  Emacs tells the 
>window manager to put the window in fullscreen and the window manager does all 
>the rest.

Thank you for the hint! I should M-x info, not merely view-emacs-news.

With fullboth there are no titles under Gnome, fine!  The no mouse's
land between left screen side and scrollbar is still there which is
irritating for mouse positioning.  It is exactly as wide as the
internal border.  With (set-frame-parameter () 'internal-border-width 0)
this can be removed.  Ideally, would be part of fullboth, such that
(set-frame-parameter () 'fullscreen nil) restores the original state.

Also, the remaining white vertical line on the left side of the screen
could be removed in fullscreen.  For smaller width of the scrollbar
that line looks quite "noisy" and irritates because it suggests that
exact positioning is necessary.

I tried various resolutions, screens and looked at differences in
scroll-bar-width.  For some, there opens up a space between (left)
scrollbar and fringe - sometimes this is on the right side
(perferable): (set-frame-parameter () 'scroll-bar-width 11)

http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/ulrich/emacs/pt.png

Ideally, the left side (that's where one is looking at most of the
time) looks always the same regardless of screen width.  Having some
internal border on the right side for padding is less irritating.  (I
would prefer here to take some pixels off the fringe, all else equal.)

Another point is the echo area: The space below the echo area is
currently used for padding in fullscreen.  This looks irritating
because it suggests that some over long line is present and makes me
search the entire area, could be lot's of spaces... Like C-x C-e on
"\n" Maybe padding is better put to the top or both.

For the qvwm windowmanager (preinstalled on IGEL X-terminals) neither
maximized nor fullboth works.  Yet, other programs are still able to
go fullscreen under qvwm (like acroread).  What I do there so far with
Emacs is to set this Motif nodecoration hint.  That removes the
decoration.  The rest manually with geometries.

I manually added that ad-hoc for some time - since about 20.7. Here is one
http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/ulrich/emacs-21.2.50.1-motifhint.tgz

>> Within Gnome, switching with Alt-TAB between windows causes irritating
>> flicker with an Emacs fullscreen present.
>
>Irritating flicker in Emacs or the other windows?  If the other windows, there 
>is nothing we can do.

After some experiments with other fullscreen programs: It's very
probably compiz.real (part of Gnome) - if that is killed, things work
as expected.  (During Alt-Tab the fullscreen program tries to regain
the screen)



Things have really improved a lot!  Why not put a fullscreen-mode on
f11?


The settings during http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/ulrich/emacs/pt.png

In GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit)
 of 2009-09-06 on gupu2
Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.10603000
configured using `configure  '--without-toolkit-scroll-bars' '--prefix' '/opt/gupu/emacs-git''

Important settings:
  value of $LC_ALL: nil
  value of $LC_COLLATE: nil
  value of $LC_CTYPE: nil
  value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil
  value of $LC_MONETARY: nil
  value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil
  value of $LC_TIME: nil
  value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: nil
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
  default enable-multibyte-characters: t

Major mode: Message

Minor modes in effect:
  mml-mode: t
  desktop-save-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  global-auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t
  abbrev-mode: t
  overwrite-mode: overwrite-mode-textual

Recent input:
a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a 
a a a a a a a a a a a <return> C-x o C-x b . e m <tab> 
<return> C-x o C-x C-g <down> C-x <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <up> <up> 
<up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <down> <left> <left> <left> 
<right> <backspace> 7 C-e C-x C-e <left> <left> <right> 
<right> C-x C-s C-x C-e <left> <left> <right> <backspace> 
8 C-e C-x C-e C-x C-s <left> <backspace> 9 C-x C-s 
C-e C-x C-e <left> <left> <left> <left> <left> C-a 
C-e <left> <backspace> 1 0 C-e C-x C-e <down-mouse-1> 
<mouse-1> <down-mouse-1> <mouse-movement> <mouse-movement> 
<drag-mouse-1> <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> <down-mouse-1> 
<mouse-1> <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> 
<down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> <down-mouse-1> <drag-mouse-1> 
<down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> <down-mouse-1> 
<mouse-1> C-g C-x C-g C-g C-x o ) <left> <backspace> 
1 C-e C-x C-e <left> <left> <left> <left> <right> <right> 
<right> <right> <left> <left> <right> <help-echo> <down-mouse-1> 
<mouse-movement> <mouse-1> <down-mouse-1> <mouse-movement> 
<mouse-1> <down-mouse-1> <mouse-movement> <drag-mouse-1> 
C-x C-s <left> <backspace> 2 C-e C-x C-e <left> <backspace> 
3 C-e C-x C-e <left> <backspace> 4 C-e C-x C-e <left> 
<left> <left> <left> C-e <left> <left> <right> <backspace> 
5 C-e C-x C-e <down-mouse-4> <mouse-4> <help-echo> 
<left> <backspace> 1 C-e C-x C-e M-! x w <up> <up> 
<up> <up> <up> <down> s SPC <backspace> <backspace> 
d C-g M-x m a n <return> x w d <return> M-! x w s SPC 
- r o o t SPC - o u t SPC p t . b u g <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> w <backspace> x w d <return> M-! <up> <right> 
<right> <right> <backspace> d <return> M-x r e p <tab> 
o <tab> r <tab> <return>

Recent messages:
Auto-saving...
nil [3 times]
goto-history-element: Beginning of history; no preceding item [4 times]
Quit
Invoking man xwd in the background
Please wait: formatting the xwd man page...
xwd man page formatted
/bin/bash: xws: command not found
(Shell command succeeded with no output)
Making completion list... [2 times]

Load-path shadows:
None found.

bug#4363: 23.1.50; fullscreen (-mode) almost fullscreen

[Jan Djärv]

Ulrich Neumerkel skrev:
> Jan Djaerv schrieb:
>> Ulrich Neumerkel skrev:
>>> Windowmanagers still put a titlebar on the fullscreen window.  This can
>>> be avoided by setting the Motif nodecoration hint.  This works in Gnome,
>>> KDE, and many windowmanagers.
>> (set-frame-parameter () 'fullscreen nil)
>>
>> Note that fullscreen is all done by the window manager.  Emacs tells the 
>> window manager to put the window in fullscreen and the window manager does all 
>> the rest.
> 
> Thank you for the hint! I should M-x info, not merely view-emacs-news.
> 
> With fullboth there are no titles under Gnome, fine!  The no mouse's
> land between left screen side and scrollbar is still there which is
> irritating for mouse positioning.  It is exactly as wide as the
> internal border.  With (set-frame-parameter () 'internal-border-width 0)
> this can be removed.  Ideally, would be part of fullboth, such that
> (set-frame-parameter () 'fullscreen nil) restores the original state.
> 
> Also, the remaining white vertical line on the left side of the screen
> could be removed in fullscreen.  For smaller width of the scrollbar
> that line looks quite "noisy" and irritates because it suggests that
> exact positioning is necessary.
> 
> I tried various resolutions, screens and looked at differences in
> scroll-bar-width.  For some, there opens up a space between (left)
> scrollbar and fringe - sometimes this is on the right side
> (perferable): (set-frame-parameter () 'scroll-bar-width 11)

Well, it is dependent on the screen resolution, the font used and the theme 
used for the scroll bar.  Also, border or not is a matter of taste.

> 
> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/ulrich/emacs/pt.png
> 
> Ideally, the left side (that's where one is looking at most of the
> time) looks always the same regardless of screen width.  Having some
> internal border on the right side for padding is less irritating.  (I
> would prefer here to take some pixels off the fringe, all else equal.)
> 
> Another point is the echo area: The space below the echo area is
> currently used for padding in fullscreen.  This looks irritating
> because it suggests that some over long line is present and makes me
> search the entire area, could be lot's of spaces... Like C-x C-e on
> "\n" Maybe padding is better put to the top or both.

This is hard work for little gain.

> 
> For the qvwm windowmanager (preinstalled on IGEL X-terminals) neither
> maximized nor fullboth works.  Yet, other programs are still able to
> go fullscreen under qvwm (like acroread).  What I do there so far with
> Emacs is to set this Motif nodecoration hint.  That removes the
> decoration.  The rest manually with geometries.

Qvwm probably don't support EWMH.  Programs like acroread use override 
redirect to do fullscreen.  I am not willing to do that for Emacs, since if 
anything goes wrong, you are stuck.

> 
> I manually added that ad-hoc for some time - since about 20.7. Here is one
> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/ulrich/emacs-21.2.50.1-motifhint.tgz
> 
>>> Within Gnome, switching with Alt-TAB between windows causes irritating
>>> flicker with an Emacs fullscreen present.
>> Irritating flicker in Emacs or the other windows?  If the other windows, there 
>> is nothing we can do.
> 
> After some experiments with other fullscreen programs: It's very
> probably compiz.real (part of Gnome) - if that is killed, things work
> as expected.  (During Alt-Tab the fullscreen program tries to regain
> the screen)
> 
> 
> 
> Things have really improved a lot!  Why not put a fullscreen-mode on
> f11?
> 

I'm not sure F11 is a common key for fullscreen.  I'll have to investigate 
that first.

I'm closing this bug, as the bug part has been fixed.

	Jan D.

bug#4363: 23.1.50; fullscreen (-mode) almost fullscreen

[Ulrich Neumerkel]

>Well, it is dependent on the screen resolution, the font used and the theme 
>used for the scroll bar.  Also, border or not is a matter of taste.

The border and scrollbar thing is definitely not matter of taste, if
you go fullscreen.  You want to use the full screen...  So anything
that disturbes here makes using Emacs more difficult.

>> "\n" Maybe padding is better put to the top or both.
>
>This is hard work for little gain.

The difference between being directly usable or needing
"customization".

>Qvwm probably don't support EWMH.  Programs like acroread use override 
>redirect to do fullscreen.  I am not willing to do that for Emacs, since if 
>anything goes wrong, you are stuck.

Qvwm on IGEL-X-Terminals is an old program indeed.  But there is no
option for upgrading.

Unfortunatly Emacs still needs "manual" customization going into
C-sources and guessing where those hints should be put.  That is not
everybody's turf.  I try to avoid that myself delaying upgrades by
years.  Last time I upgraded was 2002.  Everytime the relevant files
change a bit so it takes time to adjust.  I wonder how other people do
that.

At least some "better defined" way as simply patching sources manually
would be nice.  Maybe there is no need to put Motif hints by default.
But it would be very helpful to avoid any customization that goes
beyond .emacs.el editing.

>I'm not sure F11 is a common key for fullscreen.  I'll have to investigate 
>that first.

Under Gnome, under Windows.  Pretty everywhere it's F11.  This is what
I use now for Gnome:

(global-set-key [f11] 'toggle-fullscreen)

(defun toggle-fullscreen ()
  (interactive)
  (cond
   ((cdr-safe (assoc 'fullscreen (frame-parameters)))
    (set-frame-parameter () 'fullscreen nil))
   (t
    (set-frame-parameter () 'fullscreen 'fullboth))))

bug#4363: marked as done (23.1.50; fullscreen (-mode) almost fullscreen)

[Emacs bug Tracking System]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 885 bytes --]

Your message dated Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:27:11 +0200
with message-id <4AB908EF.5000305@swipnet.se>
and subject line Re: bug#4363: 23.1.50; fullscreen (-mode) almost fullscreen
has caused the Emacs bug report #4363,
regarding 23.1.50; fullscreen (-mode) almost fullscreen
to be marked as done.

This means that you claim that the problem has been dealt with.
If this is not the case it is now your responsibility to reopen the
bug report if necessary, and/or fix the problem forthwith.

(NB: If you are a system administrator and have no idea what this
message is talking about, this may indicate a serious mail system
misconfiguration somewhere. Please contact owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com
immediately.)


-- 
4363: http://emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=4363
Emacs Bug Tracking System
Contact owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com with problems

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3627 bytes --]

From: Ulrich Neumerkel <ulrich@complang.tuwien.ac.at>
To: emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org
Subject: 23.1.50; fullscreen (-mode) almost fullscreen
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 00:01:45 +0200
Message-ID: <E1MkPnt-0006Cp-RH@a4.complang.tuwien.ac.at>

--text follows this line--

Please write in English if possible, because the Emacs maintainers
usually do not have translators to read other languages for them.

Your bug report will be posted to the emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org mailing list.

Please describe exactly what actions triggered the bug
and the precise symptoms of the bug:

With

(set-frame-parameter () 'fullscreen 'maximized)
(set-frame-parameter () 'fullscreen nil)

allow to nicely enable/disable what might become a fullscreen-mode.

There are still some details missing for a perfect fullscreen mode:

Windowmanagers still put a titlebar on the fullscreen window.  This can
be avoided by setting the Motif nodecoration hint.  This works in Gnome,
KDE, and many windowmanagers.

Using --without-toolkit-scroll-bars with the scrollbar on the left, the
window should be shifted a couple of pixels to the left.  This helps to
avoid the unclickable and irritating no man's land between the left
screen border and the clickable scrollbar.  Otherwise using the
scrollbar is more difficult as mouse movements must be very precise
horizontally - vertical precision would suffice.  What I do here is
either to use a negative geometry to avoid that space or I manually
reposition that window.

Since many windowmanagers do make difficulties here it might be simpler
to perform that shifting within the emacs frame.

Within Gnome, switching with Alt-TAB between windows causes irritating
flicker with an Emacs fullscreen present.


In GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit)
 of 2009-09-06 on gupu2
Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.10603000
configured using `configure  '--without-toolkit-scroll-bars' '--prefix' '/opt/gupu/emacs-git''


[-- Attachment #3: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 5725 bytes --]

From: "Jan Djärv" <jan.h.d@swipnet.se>
To: Ulrich Neumerkel <ulrich@complang.tuwien.ac.at>
Cc: 4363@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org, 4363-done@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com
Subject: Re: bug#4363: 23.1.50; fullscreen (-mode) almost fullscreen
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:27:11 +0200
Message-ID: <4AB908EF.5000305@swipnet.se>



Ulrich Neumerkel skrev:
> Jan Djaerv schrieb:
>> Ulrich Neumerkel skrev:
>>> Windowmanagers still put a titlebar on the fullscreen window.  This can
>>> be avoided by setting the Motif nodecoration hint.  This works in Gnome,
>>> KDE, and many windowmanagers.
>> (set-frame-parameter () 'fullscreen nil)
>>
>> Note that fullscreen is all done by the window manager.  Emacs tells the 
>> window manager to put the window in fullscreen and the window manager does all 
>> the rest.
> 
> Thank you for the hint! I should M-x info, not merely view-emacs-news.
> 
> With fullboth there are no titles under Gnome, fine!  The no mouse's
> land between left screen side and scrollbar is still there which is
> irritating for mouse positioning.  It is exactly as wide as the
> internal border.  With (set-frame-parameter () 'internal-border-width 0)
> this can be removed.  Ideally, would be part of fullboth, such that
> (set-frame-parameter () 'fullscreen nil) restores the original state.
> 
> Also, the remaining white vertical line on the left side of the screen
> could be removed in fullscreen.  For smaller width of the scrollbar
> that line looks quite "noisy" and irritates because it suggests that
> exact positioning is necessary.
> 
> I tried various resolutions, screens and looked at differences in
> scroll-bar-width.  For some, there opens up a space between (left)
> scrollbar and fringe - sometimes this is on the right side
> (perferable): (set-frame-parameter () 'scroll-bar-width 11)

Well, it is dependent on the screen resolution, the font used and the theme 
used for the scroll bar.  Also, border or not is a matter of taste.

> 
> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/ulrich/emacs/pt.png
> 
> Ideally, the left side (that's where one is looking at most of the
> time) looks always the same regardless of screen width.  Having some
> internal border on the right side for padding is less irritating.  (I
> would prefer here to take some pixels off the fringe, all else equal.)
> 
> Another point is the echo area: The space below the echo area is
> currently used for padding in fullscreen.  This looks irritating
> because it suggests that some over long line is present and makes me
> search the entire area, could be lot's of spaces... Like C-x C-e on
> "\n" Maybe padding is better put to the top or both.

This is hard work for little gain.

> 
> For the qvwm windowmanager (preinstalled on IGEL X-terminals) neither
> maximized nor fullboth works.  Yet, other programs are still able to
> go fullscreen under qvwm (like acroread).  What I do there so far with
> Emacs is to set this Motif nodecoration hint.  That removes the
> decoration.  The rest manually with geometries.

Qvwm probably don't support EWMH.  Programs like acroread use override 
redirect to do fullscreen.  I am not willing to do that for Emacs, since if 
anything goes wrong, you are stuck.

> 
> I manually added that ad-hoc for some time - since about 20.7. Here is one
> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/ulrich/emacs-21.2.50.1-motifhint.tgz
> 
>>> Within Gnome, switching with Alt-TAB between windows causes irritating
>>> flicker with an Emacs fullscreen present.
>> Irritating flicker in Emacs or the other windows?  If the other windows, there 
>> is nothing we can do.
> 
> After some experiments with other fullscreen programs: It's very
> probably compiz.real (part of Gnome) - if that is killed, things work
> as expected.  (During Alt-Tab the fullscreen program tries to regain
> the screen)
> 
> 
> 
> Things have really improved a lot!  Why not put a fullscreen-mode on
> f11?
> 

I'm not sure F11 is a common key for fullscreen.  I'll have to investigate 
that first.

I'm closing this bug, as the bug part has been fixed.

	Jan D.