From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 10:37:17 +0200 Message-ID: <4892CB3D.10507@gmail.com> References: <4891F6BC.8010505@gmail.com> <871w19utma.GNU's_Not_Unix!%yavor@gnu.org> Reply-To: "Lennart Borgman \(gmail\)" , 631@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1217580494 21169 80.91.229.12 (1 Aug 2008 08:48:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 08:48:14 +0000 (UTC) To: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" , 631@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, rms@gnu.org, xah lee , bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, yavor@gnu.org Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 01 10:49:03 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KOqJh-0003mh-Gu for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 10:48:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48989 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KOqIl-0004Fn-QI for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:47:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KOqIJ-00045b-GT for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:47:27 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KOqIG-00044l-Ji for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:47:27 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=47443 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KOqIG-00044b-Dz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:47:24 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu ([138.23.92.77]:34638) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KOqIG-0005Am-A9 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:47:24 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu (rzlab.ucr.edu [127.0.0.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id m718lLY2025549; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 01:47:21 -0700 Original-Received: (from debbugs@localhost) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id m718j79x024606; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 01:45:08 -0700 X-Loop: don@donarmstrong.com Resent-From: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 08:45:07 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: don@donarmstrong.com X-Emacs-PR-Message: report 631 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 631-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B631.121757985722893 (code B ref 631); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 08:45:07 +0000 Original-Received: (at 631) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Aug 2008 08:37:37 +0000 Original-Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id m718bXQg022887 for <631@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 01:37:34 -0700 Original-Received: from c83-254-151-176.bredband.comhem.se ([83.254.151.176]:60387 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KOq8i-0005IV-3k; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 10:37:32 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.9) Gecko/20071031 Thunderbird/2.0.0.9 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 In-Reply-To: <871w19utma.GNU's_Not_Unix!%yavor@gnu.org> X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080731-0, 2008-07-31), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Originating-IP: 83.254.151.176 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1KOq8i-0005IV-3k. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1KOq8i-0005IV-3k a42a3eb7706728f20af266d42d77a9d8 X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) Resent-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:47:26 -0400 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:18954 Archived-At: Yavor Doganov wrote: > Lennart Borgman (gmail) wrote: >> I think both the menus and the help command should reflect the >> actual keyboard labeling (for a standard keyboard on the used OS). > > IMHO this is close to impossible, since GNU/Linux runs on a variety > (at least 10) architectures, including archaic and modern machines > that have vastly different keyboards. So there are many "standard > keyboards" for the OS GNU/Linux, also for the various free variants of > BSD. I am not suggesting that this should work for every keyboard, but it could work for the most common. In the other cases we could just stick to the current notation in help and menus. > "M-" existed since about forever; wiping it out will do more harm than > good. If a new Emacs user has problems understanding it and finding > the right key on her keyboard, she surely will have much more problems > with other Emacs features, let alone more complicated concepts and > advanced usage. Why? I remember myself searching for the key for example. > Also, you should not consider only the Emacs manual. Think of the > tens or hundreds of manuals of add-on packages, non-Emacs packages > (like Texinfo), and knowledge base like the mailing lists or sites > like the Emacs Wiki. Changing something as fundamental as this for no > apparent benefit is a bad idea. IMHO. I do not think it is realistic or useful to change the manuals. It is static. I also do not think the notation for adding key binding can be changed. However the dynamic bits in menus and help can perhaps be changed without a very big effort. That change can be useful for newcomers. I think this could be handled by just changing some central code in Emacs, but I am not sure. Here is a list of what I think must be handled: Implement M- => Alt- - Change push_key_description - Increase #define KEY_DESCRIPTION_SIZE ((2 * 6) + 1 + (CHARACTERBITS / 3) + 1 + 1) - Add option for whether to do M- => Alt- - Add keyboard values - Add OS dependent default values for "Alt" - Change the macro that reads those key sequences and converts them to vector format I might be missing a lot of things so please add to this list if you are interested.