From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 08:13:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43f576ea-c0e3-453d-a73e-804e890bef9b@default> References: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> <87d1euolzv.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <5f457952-82ca-4a77-8061-1b2e366fcfb2@default> <871svam8ky.fsf@drachen> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1486484876 30181 195.159.176.226 (7 Feb 2017 16:27:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 16:27:56 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 25627@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net To: Michael Heerdegen Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 07 17:27:53 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cb8cS-0007f9-Ei for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 17:27:52 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55215 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cb8cY-00026F-6U for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 11:27:58 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50144) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cb8P8-00083Y-C2 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 11:14:10 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cb8P4-0007jx-BU for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 11:14:06 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:60970) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cb8P4-0007jj-81 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 11:14:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cb8P4-000326-0u for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 11:14:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 16:14:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 25627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B25627.148648400311602 (code B ref 25627); Tue, 07 Feb 2017 16:14:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 25627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2017 16:13:23 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59169 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cb8OR-000314-11 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 11:13:23 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:50138) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cb8OO-00030g-VL for 25627@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 11:13:21 -0500 Original-Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v17GDEFr032408 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 7 Feb 2017 16:13:14 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v17GDD4A027557 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 7 Feb 2017 16:13:14 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v17GDB49003564; Tue, 7 Feb 2017 16:13:12 GMT In-Reply-To: <871svam8ky.fsf@drachen> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6753.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:129078 Archived-At: > > OK, there are some aliases, such as `case' for `cl-case'. But I > > thought that such was the case only for situations where Emacs > > without cl.el did not have such a function/macro/etc. - such as > > `case'. >=20 > Doesn't cl.el define more than 170 of such aliases? Dunno, and I don't really care. The number is not so important. What can be problematic is if such an alias _clashes_ with a different construct of the same name for Emacs without cl.el. I also said: > > Aside from such messes (and there are a bunch), I think that > > cl.el, like cl-lib.el, separates its stuff from non-cl.el > > stuff in Emacs. I don't think there are cases of changing > > semantics. (But if there are, those should be fixed.) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ But again, this bug report is about cl-extra.el, not cl.el. The single use of `cl-some' here is gratuitous. There is no good reason that I'm aware of why a commonly used help function should use `cl-some'. There are a zillion simple ways to do the same thing that is done by `cl-some' here. If this is not fixed (and even if it is, alas), the door is open for any number of such abuses. The direction that leads is just inclusion of cl.el (or similar that has the same effect). Emacs Dev has not decided to include cl.el by default. If it does, then OK, it does. But in that case a different restructuring and probably some other name-change rationalization will also be needed. This bug and its fix are simple - trivial even. You could even use `cl-loop', no doubt. That's a macro, so no problem. (Of course, fixing it without using anything `cl-*' is also simple.) I see no reason why anyone would not want this fixed. Especially considering that if the flood gates are opened to all cl*.el constructs then there will be a certain amount of adjusting to do - both for Emacs Dev (cleanup, factoring, whatever) and for users.