From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#45198: 28.0.50; Sandbox mode Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 18:19:32 +0100 Message-ID: <414E5ED4-0105-43FF-9DF5-D5A2E32E586B@acm.org> References: <0917E396-F78C-45BF-8A1F-5C23CA722D9A@acm.org> <26556EDE-9133-450F-9181-2859E058677C@acm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="25962"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Bastien , 45198@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier , =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_?= =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=A1vora?= To: Philipp Stephani Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 19 18:20:11 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kqftq-0006eP-RG for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 19 Dec 2020 18:20:11 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33148 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kqftp-00039o-Sd for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 19 Dec 2020 12:20:09 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48392) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kqfti-00039f-9U for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Dec 2020 12:20:02 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:59748) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kqfti-0000sQ-2C for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Dec 2020 12:20:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kqfth-00060i-Te for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Dec 2020 12:20:01 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 17:20:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 45198 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch Original-Received: via spool by 45198-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B45198.160839838023069 (code B ref 45198); Sat, 19 Dec 2020 17:20:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 45198) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Dec 2020 17:19:40 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43061 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kqftM-000601-7z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 19 Dec 2020 12:19:40 -0500 Original-Received: from mail150c50.megamailservers.eu ([91.136.10.160]:60772 helo=mail50c50.megamailservers.eu) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kqftJ-0005zr-M7 for 45198@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 19 Dec 2020 12:19:38 -0500 X-Authenticated-User: mattiase@bredband.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=megamailservers.eu; s=maildub; t=1608398376; bh=6M8tWVZhzpVnVSylxpdH/SeYMk/8zz1Arrb6ucrN99c=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=RobZbhWnlOq2rVksBr9VpNrYzD87ZREYp4rCpINFRiT1kvlTgLGchZszs0ULdkXy+ 0xRUus/p6LyeK9D4zrtwvzBjDmrBzp5BWQHDoo4f0BPseETV40VvBSrZG+0qPN9G0A ny8qAo61QHo082HPHQ35P7dMQFj8S25xoys8Aol4= Feedback-ID: mattiase@acm.or Original-Received: from stanniol.lan (c-064ae655.032-75-73746f71.bbcust.telenor.se [85.230.74.6]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail50c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id 0BJHJX2A003828; Sat, 19 Dec 2020 17:19:34 +0000 In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A782F1D.5FDE3628.001D, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CSC: 0 X-CHA: v=2.3 cv=EoysUhUA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=Ni+dBsiEfW2GqKMPYZim9A==:117 a=Ni+dBsiEfW2GqKMPYZim9A==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=M51BFTxLslgA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=pab_C4cjCCZU-3B4GMoA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 X-Origin-Country: SE X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:196401 Archived-At: 19 dec. 2020 kl. 16.08 skrev Philipp Stephani : > I'd say these two questions are somewhat independent of each other. > Even with an internal-only interface, people will start to assume that > reading arbitrary files works. > I'm personally not a huge fan of such internal interfaces though. They > are necessary in some cases, but a high-level UI framework like > Flymake shouldn't need to use them. Besides, since Flymake is released > as an external package, it should rather not use internal interfaces > in the first place. What I meant is that there is no way of knowing whether an API is = rubbish or not without having put it to use ourselves first (preferably = in two or more ways), so let's not front-load the design. We know that = this is true regardless of how good programmers we think we are.=20 Flymake would be a natural user, but it must cope with our own demands = first. >> Thanks for the reference, and you may very well be right. A = counterpoint is that since the facility would be enabled by default, a = user met with complaints about perfectly fine code will immediately = disable the checks and thus foil our plan to nudge his coding habits in = a desirable direction. >=20 > Maybe, though I wouldn't be so sure. Elisp compilation in Flycheck is > enabled by default and presumably suffers from the same problems. > There are also similar problems with other languages: for example, > when I visit src/lisp.h and enable Flymake, I get 2287 errors, 154 > warnings, and 4002 notices (which is an actual problem since the huge > number of overlays makes Emacs sluggish - probably Flymake should just > stop after 20 diagnostics or so...). I totally agree that we need to > keep the false positive rate low, but I wouldn't say that any nonzero > rate would make Flymake useless. There's a difference though: flycheck is installed by someone who wants = to use it and is presumably ready for some setting-up. In contrast, we = are aiming at an on-by-default zero-configuration Emacs feature, which = means that the bar is higher. It's meant precisely for those who would = not install and configure flycheck, so false positives may have effects = opposite the intended. > I also think that packages shouldn't rely on autoloads from other > packages. I generally dislike autoloads and think they are overused. > They make programming unnecessarily brittle because they assume not > only that the load path is set up correctly, but also that the correct > loaddefs files are already loaded. Autoloads are probably fine for > interactive commands to avoid unnecessarily loading rarely-used > packages, but inter-package dependencies should just use 'require'. I don't necessarily disagree but it would be interesting to hear what = Stefan thinks about it. Since it's somewhat of an opinionated tool after = all, it's squarely within our remit to lay down policy...