From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD= gives confusing results Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <39c015f2-3ebf-43e8-9a37-9b50382042a7@default> References: <>> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@gnu.org>>>> <<443f2e44-5167-48e7-abc6-cce1e243461e@default>> <8337nihpdw.fsf@gnu.org>>> < <83zipqg3e3.fsf@gnu.org>> <<871t32ilm0.fsf@users.sourceforge.net>> <<83k2gtfue4.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1468171167 7255 80.91.229.3 (10 Jul 2016 17:19:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:19:27 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 23926@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , npostavs@users.sourceforge.net Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 10 19:19:14 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bMINt-0000qv-L8 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 19:19:13 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56057 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bMINs-0000IG-Qk for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:19:12 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40232) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bMINl-0000Ho-Fk for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:19:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bMINi-0007TS-7K for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:19:05 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:33159) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bMINi-0007TO-3j for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:19:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bMINi-0000hi-0E for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:19:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:19:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 23926-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.14681711182670 (code B ref 23926); Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:19:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jul 2016 17:18:38 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45494 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bMINK-0000h0-5S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:18:38 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:39571) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bMINI-0000gg-PY for 23926@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:18:37 -0400 Original-Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u6AHITrG000368 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:18:30 GMT Original-Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u6AHITl3020409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:18:29 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u6AHISRF021365; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:18:28 GMT In-Reply-To: <<83k2gtfue4.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:120790 Archived-At: > whoever uses current-time-string as a defcustom's value tells Emacs that > the value is not important, because the programmer has no idea when in > the process of building and restarting Emacs will the value be taken. > Why does it make sense to rock the boat in this sensitive area for such > use cases? Obviously, `(current-time)' was an example, to demo show the problem. It can sometimes make a lot of sense for a defcustom to use a sexp that might not return the same result when reevaluated. The original bug, from which this report is an offshoot, was #4755. The example there used this defcustom sexp: `(copy-sequence foo)'. And in the context of the using code there is nothing wrong with such a sexp: the intention is really to use, as default value, a (new) list whose elements are the (exact same) elements as those in the list `foo'. And yes, this (intentionally) means that the user option, `toto', that has this value can share the objects that are its initial elements. Nothing wrong with using such an initial value for a user option. The problem is not with being able to make use of such a sexp for the default value. The problem is with how Emacs talks about the state of the option value. It miscommunicates to users. That's what this bug is about: how Emacs talks about what is going on.