From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#19152: 25.0.50; "You can run the command `debug-on-entry' with M-x deb-o RET" Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 08:16:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fcbcddc-6db0-4477-a1cc-cdd7df330d2c@default> References: <87y4r26uc6.fsf@vsl28t2g.ww011> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1416759454 21220 80.91.229.3 (23 Nov 2014 16:17:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:17:34 +0000 (UTC) To: dieter@duenenhof-wilhelm.de, 19152@debbugs.gnu.org Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 23 17:17:27 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XsZqo-0000Hu-KZ for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 23 Nov 2014 17:17:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49152 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XsZqo-00010U-5k for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 23 Nov 2014 11:17:26 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60084) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XsZqb-0000qf-WA for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Nov 2014 11:17:22 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XsZqQ-0004dv-9v for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Nov 2014 11:17:13 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:45614) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XsZqQ-0004dr-5L for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Nov 2014 11:17:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XsZqP-000465-T3 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Nov 2014 11:17:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:17:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 19152 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 19152-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B19152.141675938115700 (code B ref 19152); Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:17:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 19152) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Nov 2014 16:16:21 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42827 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XsZpk-000457-IE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 23 Nov 2014 11:16:21 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:28177) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XsZpi-00044z-Ou for 19152@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 23 Nov 2014 11:16:19 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id sANGGHpi017014 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:16:18 GMT Original-Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id sANGGG45000248 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:16:16 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0004.oracle.com (abhmp0004.oracle.com [141.146.116.10]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id sANGGF2N026087; Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:16:16 GMT In-Reply-To: <87y4r26uc6.fsf@vsl28t2g.ww011> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:96462 Archived-At: > Actually I find these messages very instructive for people like me, > which had no idea about this (new with Emacs-25?) abbreviation > ability! Then turn them for your own use. And no, it is not new with Emacs 25. And even if there were some new completion matching method, that is not a reason to bother users by drawing their attention to it for their `M-x' use. Let people learn normally. You "had no idea about this". Fine. RTFM. Read NEWS. Explore Emacs - there are a thousand ways to learn how to use it. Some developer's new discovery (even of something that is not new) might be a shiny new toy to that developer, but that is not a reason to send up fireworks to advertise its existence. > > This is not progress. Noise, not help. What were you thinking? >=20 > In the contrary I appreciate such messages very much because they > remind me to become more efficient. Again, for your own use, please. > *But* above hint is not optimal! It should have > been for example `M-x d-o- ' and not: M-x deb-o RET! Not necessarily. Depends on the current values of `completion-styles' and `completion-category-overrides'. Does your messaging take those into account? Are we going to be analyzing possible completions for the current command now, in order to give users a reasonable and context-sensitive such "help" message? The right thing is to drop this. Let users learn about the standard (and any nonstandard but possibly current) ways that command names (and other names) can be abbreviated. There will always be some users (typically newbies, but we are all newbies for some parts of Emacs) who find such a message helpful, because they haven't read the doc yet or otherwise learned about this or that UI feature. That's not a reason to turn this crap on by default. Control it by `novice.el', if you like, or add a user option (off by default) `for novice-ui-help'. > So bug#19152 is for real, since the hints are not yet conforming to > key binding conventions and might return an ambiguous and not optimal > (regarding to speed) key sequence. One person's optimal is another person's bother. There are many ways to match a name. Some might be more optimal for some users in some contexts than others. But there is nothing gained by trying to find "the optimal" one ("regarding to speed" or any other quality). It is a matter of a user's key bindings, keyboard layout, personal preferences, etc. Not to mention that some (especially newbie?) users will take such a message as an admonition that they are doing something wrong, and that they should or must mend their ways to do things the indicated "right way". YAGNI. This is not a good idea; sorry. Please remove it, at at least as default behavior. A reminder that a command is bound to a key is a reasonable feature. And even for that we have a user option (`suggest-key-bindings'). If you want to add another user option for this noise, I have no objection, as long as this behavior is off by default. Just one opinion, of course.