From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#40671: [DOC] modify literal objects Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <278a1350-8b9e-4f3b-854a-723d578129f3@default> References: <669981e5-f601-5c18-1a8b-ee316ad001ec@cs.ucla.edu> <4b8b7e98-029e-58ac-59ff-6cd984b7eb85@yandex.ru> <530d3597-aaaa-f019-bafa-8229d13e7248@yandex.ru> <60b88f52-c50d-c57a-9ce5-495e6157d36e@cs.ucla.edu> <0721d8c1-4fe3-335c-7dbc-171487cb648a@yandex.ru> <6d1015da-0dc1-376c-f84b-5e3ee3149213@cs.ucla.edu> <286139d2-bbe1-2d5a-bec1-f781666376f1@yandex.ru> <10b89e6f-6fa6-f855-65b6-3361a74472d3@cs.ucla.edu> <8542efe2-c4a6-1da5-2513-7ffcaa6c4ec9@yandex.ru> <293d0eab-4617-08fe-aafa-d6841a750af0@cs.ucla.edu> <4085994e-f42d-b90f-9c86-ad42689bbff2@yandex.ru> <9cfc3b63-7df6-145a-8a78-e3320b6d3861@cs.ucla.edu> <72399223-0ab5-dbe4-5027-d929450a4df0@yandex.ru> <1a2d0454-baa4-9831-0e2c-4411eda1c2fe@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Wed, 29 Apr 2020 00:55:34 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 03T0ptSr175142; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 00:55:34 GMT Original-Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30pvcymesq-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 29 Apr 2020 00:55:34 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0009.oracle.com (abhmp0009.oracle.com [141.146.116.15]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 03T0tNU5012374; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 00:55:23 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4993.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9605 signatures=668686 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=807 suspectscore=18 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2004290003 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9605 signatures=668686 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1015 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=18 mlxlogscore=870 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2004290003 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:179265 Archived-At: > I don't see why we should depart from terminology used by=20 > C/C++/Fortran/Common Lisp/etc.; it's reasonably well-established. You're _not_ using the language that's used for Common Lisp. I echoed what the CL doc said. Elisp corresponds to the behavior of CLTL1 in this regard, not to any later update that makes the interpreter behave more like compiled code (raising an error in both). Like CLTL1, we should just warn about the gotcha, not say that it's about modification or attempted modification of "constants". A few mails ago, you wondered if the disagreement has been only about terminology. And the response was mostly "Yes" - objections to your use of "mutable" and "constant"/"immutable", and your use of "cannot" instead of "should not" (aka "Don't"). You've since ignored that response, it seems. This has dragged on, just circling. I, for one, give up. But I do hope you'll listen to others. And yes, Michael's point about committing before discussing & deciding is spot on too. Remember your curly-quote crusade? You did the same thing then, with similar complaints about acting widely, unilaterally, and prematurely. My suggestion is to see how people have already warned users about this gotcha here & there (forums etc.) and do likewise. Come to an agreement about the behavior to warn users about - in practical, operational, but not exhaustive, terms. A simple quoted-list example is enough, along with a general description. Once there's agreement about the message, including any example(s), the wording will fall out naturally. (At least the wording won't be a battleground, once the message is decided on.)