From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#36729: 27.0.50; Unclear total in directory listing Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 14:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <26fec456-c6bc-461f-8618-9cbc87cdde67@default> References: <048FD91B-CDA0-4444-8F6F-C5B2F5C595CD@acm.org> <83k1ceusn1.fsf@gnu.org> <68D3B8E0-26F0-474A-B76D-320E523DBDDC@acm.org> <8336izsbok.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="199818"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: 36729@debbugs.gnu.org, stephen.berman@gmx.net To: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 21 23:32:09 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hpJRB-000pqj-BF for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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Sun, 21 Jul 2019 21:31:12 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2tuts2bn42-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 21 Jul 2019 21:31:11 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0014.oracle.com (abhmp0014.oracle.com [141.146.116.20]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id x6LLV8IZ019629; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 21:31:08 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4873.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9325 signatures=668684 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1907210249 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9325 signatures=668684 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1907210249 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:163565 Archived-At: I'm not weighing in here about most of what I see being discussed in the thread. And note that I use Emacs mostly on MS Windows these days, so I use ls-lisp (and am very grateful for it). > I understand the history behind Dired's design: at one point in time, > using the system `ls' was not only a way to re-use existing system > software, but also gave performance advantages as well as presenting > the information in a familiar way. In addition, the `ls' output was > more or less identical everywhere, making it easy to parse (no > localisation, no Unicode, no MS-DOS, no fancy GNU or BSD options). Those are 3 good reasons for Dired being based on `ls' and its listings: (1) performance, (2) familiarity, and (3) regularity and simplicity of design/handling (e.g. parsing). Another good reason is that a given user's system `ls' command might support switches and behavior that ls-lisp does not support. That one you left out, and it's the one that most directly concerns ls-lisp. Ls-lisp is not, and likely will never be, a complete replacement for all of the possible `ls' commands out there. IMHO, Dired should continue to be based on `ls', at least in the sense of (1) accepting, displaying, and working with its output, and (2) accepting and handling its most common switches. > The `ls -l' format, in turn, hasn't changed perceptibly for 40 years, > give or take a few -- not because it was perfect from the start but > because nobody dared breaking scripts and shell pipelines for minor > usability advantages. >=20 > Thus we are stuck with silly design elements like: > - major structure indicated with a discrete 'd' in column 1 > - less-important stuff like the link count and group name prominently > displayed > - the file name itself relegated to the very end as if an afterthought, > often going past the margin > - disk usage counted in 512-byte physical disk sectors (but not > including subdirectories, that would be too useful) > - timestamp parts separated in columns equal in importance to other > attributes > - directory 'size' column almost completely useless > - little support for file system improvements since 1975 I disagree that the "prominence" of such info is a problem in Dired nowadays. It is trivial to use Dired with such info hidden, and it's trivial to toggle, to hide/show it. In my case, I keep details hidden most of the time. I typically just show them temporarily to check the time or byte size of a file or two. > We can do better, while retaining the old format for those who have > grown too accustomed to it (not meant as pejorative). > It's just not what I had planned for in order to fix this bug. It sounds instead like your complaint is with `ls' itself - being 1975-ish or something. Push to make `ls' become the way you want it, and let Dired then adapt to support that, if it happens. There is a _lot_ to Dired, including use of `find' output and the ability to show info for files and directories from unrelated parts of the file system in the same buffer (a little known, useful feature). We should not be proposing a Dired replacement for `ls' output. (And I didn't think this bug was supposed to be about that, anyway.)