bug#16763: 24.3.50; electric-indent annoyance: C-j doesn't indent

bug#16763: 24.3.50; electric-indent annoyance: C-j doesn't indent

[raman]

This has been bothering me for a while when writing lisp code --
started happening roughly a few months ago.

I always hit C-j for newline, and a couple of months ago, this
stopped indenting -- by default C-j runs
 control j  runs the command electric-indent-just-newline
when electric-indent-mode is on.

The documentation for electric-mode indicates that indentation
will be invoked when you type any of the chars in
electric-indent-chars  -- and that variable is set to a list
containing ?\n which is  ascii 10; yet, C-j invokes a command
that explicitly only inserts a newline? (feeling very confused )





In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.2 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.16.1)
 of 2014-02-01 on labrador
Repository revision: %N
System Description:	Ubuntu 9.04

Configured using:
 `configure --prefix=/usr/local'

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Emacs-Lisp

Minor modes in effect:
  recentf-mode: t
  csv-field-index-mode: t
  gpm-mouse-mode: t
  global-semantic-idle-summary-mode: t
  global-semanticdb-minor-mode: t
  semantic-mode: t
  savehist-mode: t
  ido-everywhere: t
  display-time-mode: t
  auto-insert-mode: t
  jabber-activity-mode: t
  jabber-mode-line-mode: t
  erc-list-mode: t
  erc-menu-mode: t
  erc-autojoin-mode: t
  erc-ring-mode: t
  erc-networks-mode: t
  erc-pcomplete-mode: t
  erc-track-mode: t
  erc-match-mode: t
  erc-button-mode: t
  erc-fill-mode: t
  erc-stamp-mode: t
  erc-netsplit-mode: t
  erc-irccontrols-mode: t
  erc-noncommands-mode: t
  erc-move-to-prompt-mode: t
  erc-readonly-mode: t
  dynamic-completion-mode: t
  dired-omit-mode: t
  desktop-save-mode: t
  shell-dirtrack-mode: t
  global-voice-lock-mode: t
  voice-lock-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  buffer-read-only: t
  auto-fill-function: do-auto-fill
  transient-mark-mode: t

Recent input:
C-x C-s C-h c C-j C-e M C-x C-s ESC [ [ D C-x @ h s 
c d RET c d SPC e m TAB l i TAB e m TAB RET s v n SPC 
c i SPC - m SPC " " ; SPC m a k e RET C-h V e l e c 
TAB i n d TAB RET C-h f e l e c t r i TAB i n d TAB 
m TAB RET ESC m ESC [ [ D C-h G e l e c t r i TAB SPC 
i TAB DEL TAB ESC DEL ESC DEL C-g C-h ESC f e l e c 
t r i TAB i n d TAB m TAB RET ESC < C-e m C-x h C-s 
d e f c u s ESC < C-h ESC v e l e c t r i TAB i n d 
TAB m TAB RET ESC m C-e m C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n 
ESC m C-p C-n C-n C-h c C-j C-h v e l e c t r i c SPC 
i n d TAB c h TAB RET ESC m C-n C-n C-n C-n ESC C-e 
ESC C-j e l e c t r i TAB i n d TAB c h TAB ESC DEL 
C-g C-e h C-h ESC v e l e c t r i TAB i n d TAB c h 
TAB RET ESC m C-e e ESC [ D ESC [ D ESC [ D ESC [ C 
ESC [ C C-x C-e C-e a C-n C-h ESC k C-j ESC m C-n C-n 
C-x m ESC [ [ D n ESC x r e p o r t SPC e m a TAB b 
TAB RET

Recent messages:
uncompressing electric.el.gz...done
Note: file is write protected
Marked buffer containing 393 lines
 control j  runs the command electric-indent-just-newline

Quit 
10 (#o12, #xa, ?\C-j)
Composing a message
Save `mail to _' as draft in folder `postponed'? (y or n)  n
`mail to _ on ""' is gone forever!

Load-path shadows:
/home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/company-20131101.302/.dir-locals hides /home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/js2-mode-20131119.116/.dir-locals
/home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/company-20131101.302/.dir-locals hides /home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/kill-ring-search-20110605.1744/.dir-locals
/home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/google-this-20131031.1015/noflet hides /home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/noflet-20130901.1722/noflet
/home/raman/emacs/lisp/site-lisp/gm/g-utils hides /home/raman/emacs/lisp/emacspeak/lisp/g-client/g-utils
/home/raman/emacs/lisp/site-lisp/vm/lisp/tapestry hides /home/raman/emacs/lisp/emacspeak/lisp/tapestry
/home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/apt-utils-20130824.1200/apt-utils hides /home/raman/emacs/lisp/site-lisp/apt-utils
/home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/fold-dwim-20120926.1236/fold-dwim hides /home/raman/emacs/lisp/site-lisp/fold-dwim
/home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/xml-rpc-20130423.1656/xml-rpc hides /home/raman/emacs/lisp/site-lisp/xml-rpc
/home/raman/emacs/lisp/emacspeak/lisp/tetris hides /usr/local/share/emacs/24.3.50/lisp/play/tetris
/home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/company-20131101.302/.dir-locals hides /usr/local/share/emacs/24.3.50/lisp/gnus/.dir-locals
/home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/emms-20131016.1232/tq hides /usr/local/share/emacs/24.3.50/lisp/emacs-lisp/tq
/home/raman/.emacs.d/elpa/tabulated-list-20120406.2251/tabulated-list hides /usr/local/share/emacs/24.3.50/lisp/emacs-lisp/tabulated-list

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bug#16763: 24.3.50; electric-indent annoyance: C-j doesn't indent

[Drew Adams]

> This has been bothering me for a while when writing lisp code --
> started happening roughly a few months ago.

Yup.

> I always hit C-j for newline, and a couple of months ago, this
> stopped indenting -- by default C-j runs control j  runs the
> command electric-indent-just-newline when electric-indent-mode
> is on.
> 
> The documentation for electric-mode indicates that indentation
> will be invoked when you type any of the chars in
> electric-indent-chars  -- and that variable is set to a list
> containing ?\n which is  ascii 10; yet, C-j invokes a command
> that explicitly only inserts a newline? (feeling very confused)

It is not yet reflected in NEWS or the manuals, but `C-j' and
`RET' have been effectively swapped: `RET' now indents and `C-j'
does not indent.

The new behavior was apparently adopted to make Emacs correspond
better with what newbie users expect, based on their experience
with other editors and IDEs.

You are not alone in "feeling very confused".  Hopefully, the
NEWS entry covering this, and perhaps the manuals, will explain
the best and simplest way to restore the previous, longstanding
behavior for those who might prefer it.  Otherwise, you can
just retrain your fingers. ;-)

bug#16763: 24.3.50; electric-indent annoyance: C-j doesn't indent

[Andreas Röhler]

Am 15.02.2014 20:27, schrieb Drew Adams:
>> This has been bothering me for a while when writing lisp code --
>> started happening roughly a few months ago.
>
> Yup.
>
>> I always hit C-j for newline, and a couple of months ago, this
>> stopped indenting -- by default C-j runs control j  runs the
>> command electric-indent-just-newline when electric-indent-mode
>> is on.
>>
>> The documentation for electric-mode indicates that indentation
>> will be invoked when you type any of the chars in
>> electric-indent-chars  -- and that variable is set to a list
>> containing ?\n which is  ascii 10; yet, C-j invokes a command
>> that explicitly only inserts a newline? (feeling very confused)
>
> It is not yet reflected in NEWS or the manuals, but `C-j' and
> `RET' have been effectively swapped: `RET' now indents and `C-j'
> does not indent.
>
> The new behavior was apparently adopted to make Emacs correspond
> better with what newbie users expect, based on their experience
> with other editors and IDEs.
>
> You are not alone in "feeling very confused".  Hopefully, the
> NEWS entry covering this, and perhaps the manuals, will explain
> the best and simplest way to restore the previous, longstanding
> behavior for those who might prefer it.  Otherwise, you can
> just retrain your fingers. ;-)
>
>
>
>

Seems a wise change for the majority of beginners nonetheless.
In most cases you will indent when writing lines of code.
Rather seldom column 0 is needed,.
So I'm ready to learn... :-)

bug#16763: 24.3.50; electric-indent annoyance: C-j doesn't indent

[T. V. Raman]

The source code docs need to be fixed too
>>>>> "Drew" == Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
    >> This has been bothering me for a while when writing lisp
    >> code -- started happening roughly a few months ago.
    Drew> 
    Drew> Yup.
    Drew> 
    >> I always hit C-j for newline, and a couple of months ago,
    >> this stopped indenting -- by default C-j runs control j
    >> runs the command electric-indent-just-newline when
    >> electric-indent-mode is on.
    >> 
    >> The documentation for electric-mode indicates that
    >> indentation will be invoked when you type any of the chars
    >> in electric-indent-chars -- and that variable is set to a
    >> list containing ?\n which is ascii 10; yet, C-j invokes a
    >> command that explicitly only inserts a newline? (feeling
    >> very confused)
    Drew> 
    Drew> It is not yet reflected in NEWS or the manuals, but
    Drew> `C-j' and `RET' have been effectively swapped: `RET'
    Drew> now indents and `C-j' does not indent.
    Drew> 
    Drew> The new behavior was apparently adopted to make Emacs
    Drew> correspond better with what newbie users expect, based
    Drew> on their experience with other editors and IDEs.
    Drew> 
    Drew> You are not alone in "feeling very
    Drew> confused". Hopefully, the NEWS entry covering this, and
    Drew> perhaps the manuals, will explain the best and simplest
    Drew> way to restore the previous, longstanding behavior for
    Drew> those who might prefer it. Otherwise, you can just
    Drew> retrain your fingers. ;-)

bug#16763: 24.3.50; electric-indent annoyance: C-j doesn't indent

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Drew.

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
>> This has been bothering me for a while when writing lisp code --
>> started happening roughly a few months ago.

> Yup.

>> I always hit C-j for newline, and a couple of months ago, this
>> stopped indenting -- by default C-j runs control j  runs the
>> command electric-indent-just-newline when electric-indent-mode
>> is on.
>> 
>> The documentation for electric-mode indicates that indentation
>> will be invoked when you type any of the chars in
>> electric-indent-chars  -- and that variable is set to a list
>> containing ?\n which is  ascii 10; yet, C-j invokes a command
>> that explicitly only inserts a newline? (feeling very confused)

> It is not yet reflected in NEWS or the manuals, but `C-j' and
> `RET' have been effectively swapped: `RET' now indents and `C-j'
> does not indent.

No, it's a lot worse than that.  What you say only applies when
electric-indent-mode is active (which is currently is, by default).

If you enable e-i-mode in a single buffer using
electric-indent-local-mode, then that binding reversal will apply in all
buffers.  (That's assuming that function works, which I strongly suspect
isn't the case.)  If you then disable e-i-m, whether the bindings stay
swapped depends on how you do the disabling.

If you advise `newline-and-indent', the results will be unexpected and
suboptimal when e-i-mode is enabled.

> The new behavior was apparently adopted to make Emacs correspond
> better with what newbie users expect, based on their experience
> with other editors and IDEs.

Sort of.  I suspect the newbie users who don't like e-i-mode would also
like to have these bindings reversed.  Or maybe not.  Who can say?

> You are not alone in "feeling very confused".  Hopefully, the
> NEWS entry covering this, and perhaps the manuals, will explain
> the best and simplest way to restore the previous, longstanding
> behavior for those who might prefer it.  Otherwise, you can
> just retrain your fingers. ;-)

I'm not confused about this issue.  Just very, very unhappy.

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

bug#16763: 24.3.50; electric-indent annoyance: C-j doesn't indent

[Stefan Monnier]

> The documentation for electric-mode indicates that indentation
> will be invoked when you type any of the chars in
> electric-indent-chars

Actually, it's when you self-insert-command a char in electric-indent-chars.
Both C-j and RET call self-insert-command indirectly after fiddling to
force them both to insert ?\n.

In any case, if you prefer the old behavior, just disable
electric-indent-mode.


        Stefan