bug#5990: 23.1; Cannot type the word 買います

bug#5990: 23.1; Cannot type the word 買います

[Erik Mekhsian]

Setting the input method to Japanese and typing the word "kaimasu", then
hitting <space> to cycle through the list of replacement kanji shows
only 改マス and 開マス.  In particular, I expected to see 買います,
although 飼います, 交います, and 支います should be there as well.  This
is the only word I have had this problem with so far.

In GNU Emacs 23.1.1 (i486-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.18.3)
 of 2010-03-25 on palmer, modified by Debian
Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.10604000
configured using `configure  '--build=i486-linux-gnu'
'--host=i486-linux-gnu' '--prefix=/usr' '--sharedstatedir=/var/lib'
'--libexecdir=/usr/lib' '--localstatedir=/var/lib'
'--infodir=/usr/share/info' '--mandir=/usr/share/man' '--with-pop=yes'
'--enable-locallisppath=/etc/emacs23:/etc/emacs:/usr/local/share/emacs/23.1/site-lisp:/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/23.1/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/23.1/leim'
'--with-x=yes' '--with-x-toolkit=gtk' '--with-toolkit-scroll-bars'
'build_alias=i486-linux-gnu' 'host_alias=i486-linux-gnu'
'CFLAGS=-DDEBIAN -g -O2' 'LDFLAGS=-g' 'CPPFLAGS=''

Important settings:
  value of $LC_ALL: nil
  value of $LC_COLLATE: nil
  value of $LC_CTYPE: nil
  value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil
  value of $LC_MONETARY: nil
  value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil
  value of $LC_TIME: nil
  value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=ibus
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
  default-enable-multibyte-characters: t

Major mode: Text

Minor modes in effect:
  tooltip-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  global-auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t

Recent input:
C-x C-f j p t s t . t x t <return> C-\ j a p a n e
s e <return> k a i m a s u SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC
SPC <return> M-x r e p o r t - e m <tab> <return>

Recent messages:
For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type C-h C-a.
(New file)
Loading quail/japanese...done
Loading /home/akira/.kkcrc...done
/usr/bin/mail is not an executable.  Setting mail-interactive to t.
Loading ja-dic/ja-dic...done

bug#5990: 23.1; Cannot type the word 買います

[Andrew Hyatt]

Trying this out Emacs 25, I get completely different text.  My choices
are:

かいます
垣間す
加居間す
過居間す
可居間す

I don't read Japanese, so I can't comment on how appropriate any of the
matches are.

From what I can tell, the Japanese word list is build off of
http://openlab.ring.gr.jp/skk/skk/dic/SKK-JISYO.L.  I don't know about
the process of changing that.

Erik Mekhsian <akirashinigami@gmail.com> writes:

> Setting the input method to Japanese and typing the word "kaimasu", then
> hitting <space> to cycle through the list of replacement kanji shows
> only 改マス and 開マス.  In particular, I expected to see 買います,
> although 飼います, 交います, and 支います should be there as well.  This
> is the only word I have had this problem with so far.
>
> In GNU Emacs 23.1.1 (i486-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.18.3)
>  of 2010-03-25 on palmer, modified by Debian
> Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.10604000
> configured using `configure  '--build=i486-linux-gnu'
> '--host=i486-linux-gnu' '--prefix=/usr' '--sharedstatedir=/var/lib'
> '--libexecdir=/usr/lib' '--localstatedir=/var/lib'
> '--infodir=/usr/share/info' '--mandir=/usr/share/man' '--with-pop=yes'
> '--enable-locallisppath=/etc/emacs23:/etc/emacs:/usr/local/share/emacs/23.1/site-lisp:/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/23.1/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/23.1/leim'
> '--with-x=yes' '--with-x-toolkit=gtk' '--with-toolkit-scroll-bars'
> 'build_alias=i486-linux-gnu' 'host_alias=i486-linux-gnu'
> 'CFLAGS=-DDEBIAN -g -O2' 'LDFLAGS=-g' 'CPPFLAGS=''
>
> Important settings:
>   value of $LC_ALL: nil
>   value of $LC_COLLATE: nil
>   value of $LC_CTYPE: nil
>   value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil
>   value of $LC_MONETARY: nil
>   value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil
>   value of $LC_TIME: nil
>   value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
>   value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=ibus
>   locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
>   default-enable-multibyte-characters: t
>
> Major mode: Text
>
> Minor modes in effect:
>   tooltip-mode: t
>   tool-bar-mode: t
>   mouse-wheel-mode: t
>   menu-bar-mode: t
>   file-name-shadow-mode: t
>   global-font-lock-mode: t
>   font-lock-mode: t
>   blink-cursor-mode: t
>   global-auto-composition-mode: t
>   auto-composition-mode: t
>   auto-encryption-mode: t
>   auto-compression-mode: t
>   line-number-mode: t
>   transient-mark-mode: t
>
> Recent input:
> C-x C-f j p t s t . t x t <return> C-\ j a p a n e
> s e <return> k a i m a s u SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC
> SPC <return> M-x r e p o r t - e m <tab> <return>
>
> Recent messages:
> For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type C-h C-a.
> (New file)
> Loading quail/japanese...done
> Loading /home/akira/.kkcrc...done
> /usr/bin/mail is not an executable.  Setting mail-interactive to t.
> Loading ja-dic/ja-dic...done

bug#5990: 23.1; Cannot type the word 買います

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2016 00:05:45 -0400
> Cc: 5990@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Trying this out Emacs 25, I get completely different text.  My choices
> are:
> 
> かいます
> 垣間す
> 加居間す
> 過居間す
> 可居間す
> 
> I don't read Japanese, so I can't comment on how appropriate any of the
> matches are.

I tried the same in Emacs 23, and I couldn't reproduce the issue
there, either.  Maybe the OP had some customized dictionary, or maybe
even didn't use the Emacs IM?  E.g., this might be relevant:

>   value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=ibus

> >From what I can tell, the Japanese word list is build off of
> http://openlab.ring.gr.jp/skk/skk/dic/SKK-JISYO.L.  I don't know about
> the process of changing that.

If there are significant updates, we can import a new version for the
next release, I think.

bug#5990: 23.1; Cannot type the word 買います

[Alex]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> E.g., this might be relevant:
>
>>   value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=ibus

FWIW, I tried it on a system with that value and I got the same results
as Andrew. Maybe he did use a different IM.

> If there are significant updates, we can import a new version for the
> next release, I think.

I can't say anything on that front, but I tried updating the Japanese
dictionary to the latest version using skkdic-convert in
lisp/international/ja-dic-cnv.el and it still gave the "wrong" results for
買います.

I can also reproduce this with inflected versions of some common words
like はなします and よみます. Neither produce the expected results of 話
します　and 読みます.

The above examples work as expected with the mozc IM
(https://github.com/google/mozc).

bug#5990: 23.1; Cannot type the word 買います

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Alex <agrambot@gmail.com> writes:

>> If there are significant updates, we can import a new version for the
>> next release, I think.
>
> I can't say anything on that front, but I tried updating the Japanese
> dictionary to the latest version using skkdic-convert in
> lisp/international/ja-dic-cnv.el and it still gave the "wrong" results for
> 買います.

In Emacs 28, I'm getting:

魔居間す
加居間す
過居間す
可居間す
かいます

So I'm not getting 買います here, either.

But I guess we're just using whatever is in:

http://openlab.ring.gr.jp/skk/skk/dic/SKK-JISYO.L

(Our version was updated earlier this year.)  So is this something that
we can fix on our side, or is it just what this dictionary says?  

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#5990: 23.1; Cannot type the word 買います

[Naohiro Aota]

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 09:21:12PM +0200, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> Alex <agrambot@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> >> If there are significant updates, we can import a new version for the
> >> next release, I think.
> >
> > I can't say anything on that front, but I tried updating the Japanese
> > dictionary to the latest version using skkdic-convert in
> > lisp/international/ja-dic-cnv.el and it still gave the "wrong" results for
> > 買います.

Background: I'm Japanese.

> In Emacs 28, I'm getting:
>

These are still all valid (possible) kanji conversion for "kaimasu".

> 魔居間す

(This looks strange. I guess there are some mistakes for this one.)

> 加居間す
> 過居間す
> 可居間す

All these can be read as "ka" (加, 過, 可) + "ima" (居間) + "su" (す).

> かいます

The implementation of leim's kanji conversion is so simple as
follow. In short, it just find the longest match from the dictionary
even if it is strange (for Japanese) or not.

  (setq kkc-current-key (string-to-vector kkc-original-kana))
  (setq kkc-length-head (length kkc-current-key))
  (unwind-protect
      ...
	(while (not (kkc-lookup-key kkc-length-head nil first))
	  (setq kkc-length-head (1- kkc-length-head)
		first nil))

So, we get the longest conversion of "kaimasu" as "kaima" as above.

To get "買います", we need explicitly set the conversion length to 2
with C-o/C-i. It can be reproduced in a code like this:

(let ((kkc-current-key "かいます"))
  (kkc-lookup-key 2)
  kkc-current-conversions)
(1 "買い" "書い" "描い" "飼い" "画い" "欠い" "掻い" "嗅い" "交い" "畫い" "缺い" ...)
;;  `-- Here, we have the "買います" result
   
(let ((kkc-current-key "かいます"))
  (kkc-lookup-key 3)
  kkc-current-conversions)
(1 "垣間" "加居間" "過居間" "可居間")

> So I'm not getting 買います here, either.
> 
> But I guess we're just using whatever is in:
> 
> http://openlab.ring.gr.jp/skk/skk/dic/SKK-JISYO.L
> 
> (Our version was updated earlier this year.)  So is this something that
> we can fix on our side, or is it just what this dictionary says?  

Well, other IM like mozc is much more intelligent to prefer "買います"
than the above three conversions because "買います" is plausible.

IMHO, implementing such complex algorithm is out of scope for leim. It
still can be a "rescue" tool even with the simple algorithm if you can
set a proper conversion length. And, we anyway use other IM like mozc,
SKK, tc.el.

Thanks,

> -- 
> (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
>    bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
> 
> 
> 

bug#5990: 23.1; Cannot type the word 買います

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Naohiro Aota <naota@elisp.net> writes:

> To get "買います", we need explicitly set the conversion length to 2
> with C-o/C-i. It can be reproduced in a code like this:
>
> (let ((kkc-current-key "かいます"))
>   (kkc-lookup-key 2)
>   kkc-current-conversions)
> (1 "買い" "書い" "描い" "飼い" "画い" "欠い" "掻い" "嗅い" "交い" "畫い" "缺い" ...)
> ;;  `-- Here, we have the "買います" result

Ah, I see.

> IMHO, implementing such complex algorithm is out of scope for leim. It
> still can be a "rescue" tool even with the simple algorithm if you can
> set a proper conversion length. And, we anyway use other IM like mozc,
> SKK, tc.el.

So it this basically working as designed, and the bug report should be
closed?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#5990: 23.1; Cannot type the word 買います

[Naohiro Aota]

On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 10:34:11AM +0200, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> Naohiro Aota <naota@elisp.net> writes:
> 
> > To get "買います", we need explicitly set the conversion length to 2
> > with C-o/C-i. It can be reproduced in a code like this:
> >
> > (let ((kkc-current-key "かいます"))
> >   (kkc-lookup-key 2)
> >   kkc-current-conversions)
> > (1 "買い" "書い" "描い" "飼い" "画い" "欠い" "掻い" "嗅い" "交い" "畫い" "缺い" ...)
> > ;;  `-- Here, we have the "買います" result
> 
> Ah, I see.
> 
> > IMHO, implementing such complex algorithm is out of scope for leim. It
> > still can be a "rescue" tool even with the simple algorithm if you can
> > set a proper conversion length. And, we anyway use other IM like mozc,
> > SKK, tc.el.
> 
> So it this basically working as designed, and the bug report should be
> closed?

Yes, I think so.

> -- 
> (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
>    bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#5990: 23.1; Cannot type the word 買います

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Naohiro Aota <naota@elisp.net> writes:

>> So it this basically working as designed, and the bug report should be
>> closed?
>
> Yes, I think so.

Thanks for the explanation; I'm closing this bug report, then.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no