From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#30393: 24.4; cperl-mode: indentation failure Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 21:00:22 +0000 Message-ID: <20180214210022.GA10559@ACM> References: <20180208152552.GL13340@hodi> <20180209175040.63536.qmail@mail.muc.de> <3331f80a-c5aa-5cb9-8088-0a88888bdaca@yandex.ru> <20180210112654.GA4537@ACM> <8360752gj8.fsf@gnu.org> <20180211124930.GB4515@ACM> <83d11b1ozj.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1518642642 13742 195.159.176.226 (14 Feb 2018 21:10:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 21:10:42 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Cc: 30393@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru, monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 14 22:10:37 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1em4Jd-0001et-Ju for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 22:10:09 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60425 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1em4Lf-0008Lp-Fl for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:12:15 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50577) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1em4LV-0008Jr-Gf for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:12:06 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1em4LS-0000Ag-Oe for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:12:05 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:35419) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1em4LS-0000AW-Kn for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:12:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1em4LS-0001Ls-EW for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:12:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Alan Mackenzie Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 21:12:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 30393 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 30393-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B30393.15186427115173 (code B ref 30393); Wed, 14 Feb 2018 21:12:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 30393) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Feb 2018 21:11:51 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43316 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1em4LG-0001LN-SJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:11:51 -0500 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:55625 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1em4LF-0001LF-2z for 30393@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:11:49 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail 27506 invoked by uid 3782); 14 Feb 2018 21:11:47 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C7683.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.118.131]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 22:11:45 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 10599 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Feb 2018 21:00:22 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83d11b1ozj.fsf@gnu.org> X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:143289 Archived-At: Hello, Eli. On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 18:16:00 +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 12:49:30 +0000 > > Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net, > > monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA, 30393@debbugs.gnu.org > > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > This text is not needed. The original text, which you deleted, > > > described how to avoid a real problem; if that problem no longer > > > exists, we should just delete that text. If that problem does exist > > > in some modes, we should leave that text as it was, with a better > > > description of what modes are still subject to these problems. > > > But describing something that is no longer done by Emacs is just waste > > > of paper. > > Perhaps the proposed fix was somewhat prolix ("long winded"). But, in a > > sense, we're providing a new feature, the ability to write syntactically > > correct parens. If we don't mention this, people won't notice. > > Occasionally somebody will remember the previous restriction, try to > > look it up in the manual, and end up puzzled. > > How about a compromise, and replacing those two long paragraphs with a > > simple sentence such as: > > From Emacs 27.1, you can write opening parens at column zero without > > problems. > > > Overall, I must say I'm confused regarding the purpose of this patch. > > > What does it try to accomplish? > > To note that the documented previous restrictions on parens in column 0 > > no longer hold. > The right place for such stuff is in NEWS. > > I suppose we really want to mark this part of the manual as obsolete, > > but we've got no mechanism for doing this. Besides, > > open-paren-in-column-0-is-defun-start still has _some_ functionality. > The variable should have some minimal description with a note that > using it nowadays is seldom needed. That should be enough to drive > your point home, I think. In accordance with that, then, I propose the following as the complete emacs manual page "Left Margin Convention": 26.2.1 Left Margin Convention ----------------------------- Many programming-language modes have traditionally assumed that any opening delimiter found at the left margin is the start of a top-level definition, or defun. So, by default, commands which seek the beginning of a defun accept such a delimiter as signifying that position. If you want to override this convention, you can do so by setting the user option `open-paren-in-column-0-is-defun-start' to `nil'. If this option is set to `t' (the default), commands seeking the start of a defun will stop at opening parentheses or braces at column zero. When it is `nil', defuns are found by searching for parens or braces at the outermost level. Since low-level Emacs routines no longer depend on this convention, you usually won't need to change `open-paren-in-column-0-is-defun-start' from its default. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).