From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#30241: Emacs 26.0.91: "Generalized variables" are not defined. Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 21:58:41 +0000 Message-ID: <20180210215841.GB4537@ACM> References: <20180124200652.GA4493@ACM> <83h8r8ln7u.fsf@gnu.org> <41654c7c-2d8d-44ec-a5c4-dd12014b7a9e@default> <83o9lfk2sy.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1518300501 15772 195.159.176.226 (10 Feb 2018 22:08:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 22:08:21 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Cc: 30241@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 10 23:08:17 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ekdJV-00037o-RG for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2018 23:08:05 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40237 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ekdLX-0000CD-IY for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2018 17:10:11 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46055) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ekdLQ-0000B9-Ru for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2018 17:10:06 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ekdLN-0002XG-Uy for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2018 17:10:04 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:57671) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ekdLN-0002X3-Qz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2018 17:10:01 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ekdLN-0005Mn-Lp for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2018 17:10:01 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Alan Mackenzie Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 22:10:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 30241 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 30241-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B30241.151830057120584 (code B ref 30241); Sat, 10 Feb 2018 22:10:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 30241) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2018 22:09:31 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37335 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ekdKt-0005Lw-78 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2018 17:09:31 -0500 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:59365 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ekdKr-0005Lm-2x for 30241@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2018 17:09:29 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail 4624 invoked by uid 3782); 10 Feb 2018 22:09:27 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C6FC0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.111.192]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 10 Feb 2018 23:09:26 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 25928 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Feb 2018 21:58:41 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83o9lfk2sy.fsf@gnu.org> X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:143115 Archived-At: Hello, Eli. Sorry about the long delay. On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 12:34:53 +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 08:15:32 -0800 (PST) > > From: Drew Adams > > Cc: acm@muc.de, 30241@debbugs.gnu.org [ .... ] > > I think you'll see a difference - it is, IMO, "significantly > > different". > Actually, no, I didn't. I do see some additional explanations that > might have helped Alan understand the issue, but nothing > "significant". So much so that I doubt Alan will find the CL docs > helpful after disliking our docs of the same subject, as he did, based > on his original bug report. Of course, it's possible that I'm missing > something here. > Therefore, I invite Alan (and anyone else who'd like to chime in) to > please compare the CL docs on this matter with ours, and tell what > parts of the former made the issue "fall into place" (pun intended) > wrt this topic, where our docs don't. Bonus points for proposing > patches for the relevant parts of the ELisp manual, to make this > subject's documentation "significantly" better. I've read https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node80.html, and found it clear indeed. However it was also long. After reading it, the Elisp sections on generalised variables make much more sense. This suggests that these Elisp sections contain the material, but are not suitable for readers who don't already understand generalised variables. In that CL page, a generalised variable is effectively defined as something you can use `setf' on within the first three paragraphs. In the elisp sections, that identification is not present in the opening paragraphs - there is no definition on that opening page. The first sub-page does not define a generalised variable as something you can use setf on - it merely says setf is a way to access one. But that definition needs to be in the top level page, and it needs to be clear that it _is_ a definition. The CL page gives a complete list of forms setf will work with. The elisp page merely gives a list, without it being clear whether that list is complete or not. > Thanks. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).