From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:48:49 +0000 Message-ID: <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1462380584 25668 80.91.229.3 (4 May 2016 16:49:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:49:44 +0000 (UTC) Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed May 04 18:49:31 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1axzzP-0004E4-1h for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 18:49:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49036 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzzL-0007SJ-DF for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:49:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44130) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzzB-0007BH-Ew for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:49:23 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzyz-0000ge-Fa for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:49:11 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:53961) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzyz-0000fX-C4 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:49:05 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzyw-0001aw-04 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:49:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Alan Mackenzie Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 16:49:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23425 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 23425-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B23425.14623805386115 (code B ref 23425); Wed, 04 May 2016 16:49:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:48:58 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38065 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzyr-0001aZ-Oq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:48:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:20339) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzym-0001aN-OZ for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:48:56 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 15990 invoked by uid 3782); 4 May 2016 16:48:50 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p4FC46556.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.196.101.86]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 04 May 2016 18:48:49 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 31816 invoked by uid 1000); 4 May 2016 16:48:49 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:117774 Archived-At: Hello, Eli. On Wed, May 04, 2016 at 06:32:40PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 20:03:30 +0000 > > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > > And why is it something that users shouldn't routinely do? > > > Because the theory behind this change is that everyone will want that, > > > certainly after they get used to it a little. [ .... ] > > > If that theory is wrong, we will have to change much more than just > > > document that variable or teach users to use it more. > > That theory _is_ wrong, certainly amongst Emacs developers. Even in this > > bug thread, two other people have expressed negative sentiments about > > this matter. > So we have 3 people against that. Is it really enough? That's three people in this thread. Over the months, more people have expressed unhappinness about curly quotes, in the various ways they have been imposed on us. Yes, I think that is enough. The comments from the other two people have been less than fully respectful, and at least one of them is not known for making snide remarks. What does that tell you? Put frankly, the curly quote stuff was installed into Emacs without there being any consensus in favour of it, and was deliberately done in such a way that it could not be disabled (see below). > > > > Surely it should be a configuration variable. Some people, like me, > > > > don't like being lied to by a computer program. > > > You are not being lied to. Just think of ` and ' as yet another > > > format specifier character, not unlike %. > > They're not - they're literal characters. > So is %. You can escape a % by writing %%. That will consistently be output as %. There is no comparable form of escape for the quote characters. > > > emacs -Q > > > M-: (setq text-quoting-style 'grave) RET > > > M-: (message "`this'") RET => `this' > > > What am I missing? > > That in that scenario, (message "`this'") ; with curly quotes > > gets converted to "`this'" ; with ASCII quotes. This is not wanted. > Not sure why. But anyway, the change such as what you suggest is too > pervasive to install on the emacs-25 branch, unless we want to delay > the release. Too bad these issues didn't come up in time. I brought this matter up in June 2015, immediately after mandatory mangling of quotes was introduced. I installed a patch (52c3946c872c8bd96508f74cdda5cbb90c664306, on 2015-06-18) to make this mangling optional. The very next day, you-know-who effectively reverted this change, under the guise of expanding the choice available, making the mangling mandatory again. I should have fought the issue at the time, but didn't. If it is too late to go into 25.1, can we put a fix into 25.2? And yet again, I suggest `text-quoting-style' should become a configurable option, giving users the ability to chose how THEY want messages to be displayed. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).