From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#20707: [PROPOSED PATCH] Use curved quoting in C-generated errors Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 17:18:04 +0000 Message-ID: <20150608171804.GA3184@acm.fritz.box> References: <556CA97C.8070807@cs.ucla.edu> <20150602115600.GA3468@acm.fritz.box> <556DCE36.9070505@cs.ucla.edu> <20150602170724.GA2567@acm.fritz.box> <20150602204423.GA2619@acm.fritz.box> <55707236.6060605@cs.ucla.edu> <20150606155445.GE3418@acm.fritz.box> <557337CD.60706@cs.ucla.edu> <20150606205023.GA3862@acm.fritz.box> <55738BA9.7050104@cs.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1433783904 569 80.91.229.3 (8 Jun 2015 17:18:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 17:18:24 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 20707@debbugs.gnu.org To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 08 19:18:12 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Z20ge-0007U7-88 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 19:18:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59346 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z20gd-0002ry-Bg for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 13:18:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40275) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z20gZ-0002rj-EX for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 13:18:08 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z20gV-0003wp-9a for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 13:18:07 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:35448) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z20gV-0003wc-5n for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 13:18:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Z20gU-0002Mv-Jz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 13:18:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Alan Mackenzie Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2015 17:18:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20707 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch Original-Received: via spool by 20707-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20707.14337838619076 (code B ref 20707); Mon, 08 Jun 2015 17:18:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 20707) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jun 2015 17:17:41 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45423 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Z20g8-0002MJ-KB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 13:17:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:31535) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Z20g5-0002M8-8t for 20707@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 13:17:38 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 77834 invoked by uid 3782); 8 Jun 2015 17:17:35 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p579E8880.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [87.158.136.128]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 19:17:34 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 13373 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Jun 2015 17:18:05 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <55738BA9.7050104@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:103758 Archived-At: Hello, Paul. On Sat, Jun 06, 2015 at 05:09:13PM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > Up till now, all messages output have been ASCII (with the exception of user > > supplied characters and in some other rare instances such as outputting > > `sentence-end'). > No, even the current stable version of Emacs (24.4) regularly outputs > curved quotes on typical displays. I just now ran emacs -Q, typed "C-h > i m emacs RET", and saw curved quotes on the first screenful of the > Emacs manual. The topic was specifically "message output". And up till now this has been ASCII. Saying "somebody else did it first, therefore it must be all right for us" is a red herring. I hope you never use that as an excuse in a court of law. Further, we don't control Info output, there's nothing much we can do about it, and you have been amongst the loudest complaining about Info 5, albeit about a different aspect. > So we're not making such a drastic change here; we're just evolving > Emacs in the natural direction. Sorry Paul, but that's not so. There's nothing "natural" about "evolving" from ubiquitous common characters to obscure, difficult to type, difficult to display ones. The change in philosopy is marked. "There's a massive movement afloat, and we're just allowing ourselves to be swept along with it" isn't the Emacs norm. What you want to do is to change Emacs so that it works less well on many, if not most[*], current setups. The one justification you've given is that you personally find the current use of ASCII quote marks irritating, which I would accept as a good reason, but you could fix that by fixing your fonts, in much the same way you're advocating I fix my fonts. I don't think "everybody else is doing it" counts as justification at all. [*] Even on GUI systems with all these quirky characters displayable, it's going to be more difficult to do search operations involving them. > > does the code test the output display setup to decide what sort of > > quotes to output (best), or is it up to some user option (middling) > > or is it hard coded (worst)? > It tests the output display setup. Excellent! I've just updated and built my master copy, and tried it out on the Emacs manual as bundled with the 24.5 release. That still displays double curly quotes as inverse question marks, though. Could I have misunderstood you, and the code that does this test hasn't yet found its way into master? > >> This is not too much to ask of an Emacs developer. > > Of course not, but could it be too much to ask of an Emacs user? > Emacs users in 8-bit environments shouldn't need to worry about this; they > should just see straight quotes where the Emacs manual etc. uses curved ones. And they'll see C-s searches involving "these" characters failing inexplicably. And this will happen in more than just "8-bit" environments. > This thread is more about the special case of a developer who's using a Linux > console that doesn't support the full Unicode gamut. It's potentially about the "special case" of USERS of all display environments other than unicode GUI ones. How many environments other than the Linux terminal are there in which these new characters won't be displayed properly? As the proponent of the change, you'll surely have done this research, yes?. > > this warrants an extensive entry in NEWS. > Makes sense, and the next iteration of this patch will add a NEWS entry. > > I don't think that's the font for me. It has one-pixel thick spidery > > characters, rather than the two-pixel thick ones the default fonts have. > The font has a bold variant. I'll attach Lat15-TerminusBold16.psf.gz. There > are other variants that are even bigger, if you like. I don't think it makes too much sense to talk about my personal setup. I've already resigned myself to spending many hours on the topic, and finding out about how Linux console fonts work has already consumed the first few hours of this. The real question is what support is to be given to the bulk of other users of non-full-unicode terminals. > > ... Its apostrophe is a vertical line rather than a top right to bottom left > > sloping character, and I find its curly single quotes too indistinct > If you just want to continue to use the same font, how about the attached font > lat1-16.psfu.gz instead? That's the one I'm using anyway. :-). It's an excellent font, but it lacks curly double quotes and distinct glyphs for curly single quotes. I have the requisite programs for editing fonts, namely psf2txt, and txt2psf, part of the GNU/Linux psftools package. psf2txt dumps a font into a readable (and editable) format, and txt2psf does the reverse. > It's taken from the current stable version of kbd > ; see > and extract the file > kbd-2.0.2/data/consolefonts/lat1-16.psfu and then use gzip to get the compressed > version. This handles curved single quotes and if it's the same lat1-16 font > you're used to you should find it comfortable. Curved double quotes don't come > up as often, but if you want them to be displayed using a graphical > representation other than '"', you can do something like the following: > (printf '0x0d3 U+201C\n0x0d9 U+201D\n'; psfgettable lat1-16.psfu) | > psfaddtable lat1-16.psfu - lat1-16-double.psfu > gzip -9n lat1-16-double.psfu > and then use the font lat1-16-double.psfu.gz instead. This, indeed, is another approach. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).