From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Vincent Lefevre Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#13505: Bug#696026: emacs24: file corruption on saving Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 05:14:10 +0100 Message-ID: <20130121041410.GJ2695@xvii.vinc17.org> References: <20121215223809.GA7549@xvii.vinc17.org> <877gn8ijgn.fsf@trouble.defaultvalue.org> <83obgjpzod.fsf@gnu.org> <20130120212508.GF2695@xvii.vinc17.org> <83bocjpm81.fsf@gnu.org> <20130120221007.GG2695@xvii.vinc17.org> <83a9s3p56p.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1358741707 26319 80.91.229.3 (21 Jan 2013 04:15:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 04:15:07 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 696026-forwarded@bugs.debian.org, 696026@bugs.debian.org, rlb@defaultvalue.org, 13505@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 21 05:15:25 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Tx8n5-0005mo-5s for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2013 05:15:23 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53239 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Tx8mo-0006xW-4U for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 23:15:06 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:45149) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Tx8mk-0006w2-Fi for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 23:15:04 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Tx8mj-0003fB-5d for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 23:15:02 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:36719) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Tx8mj-0003f7-21 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 23:15:01 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Tx8ni-0006C4-3H for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 23:16:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Vincent Lefevre Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 04:16:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 13505 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 13505-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B13505.135874171723752 (code B ref 13505); Mon, 21 Jan 2013 04:16:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 13505) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Jan 2013 04:15:17 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42183 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Tx8my-0006B3-Jd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 23:15:17 -0500 Original-Received: from vinc17.pck.nerim.net ([213.41.242.187]:57804 helo=smtp-xvii.vinc17.net) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Tx8mw-0006Au-Cu for 13505@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2013 23:15:15 -0500 Original-Received: by xvii.vinc17.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B2C1C31001B; Mon, 21 Jan 2013 05:14:10 +0100 (CET) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83a9s3p56p.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer-Info: http://www.vinc17.net/mutt/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21-6290-vl-r57386 (2013-01-17) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:70126 Archived-At: On 2013-01-21 05:48:14 +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > You said: > >=20 > > | The original encoded form of the characters as found on disk at > > | visit time _cannot_ be recovered by saving with raw-text, because > > | that encoded form is lost without a trace when the file is _visited= _ > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > | and decoded into the internal representation. > >=20 > > This is what lossy is. >=20 > In that sense, every encoding except no-conversion is lossy. Even 8-bit encodings such as latin-1? > > On the opposite, the utf-8 encoding doesn't seem to be lossy: Emacs > > seems to handle files with invalid UTF-8 sequences without any loss. > > So, this encoding is safe, even if Emacs wrongly guess the encoding. >=20 > No, it isn't, although you could get away with it most of the time. Could you give an example where one loses data with the utf-8 encoding? > > But Emacs should clearly tell the user what to do after C-x C-s and > > clearly say when there can be data loss. >=20 > At save time, "data loss" is wrt what's in the buffer. In that sense, > the encodings Emacs suggested don't lose any data. "data loss" is the difference between the original file and the saved file. > > Then Emacs says: "Select one of the safe coding systems listed below > > [...]", but doesn't say that something has already been lost. So, the > > words "safe coding systems" are really misleading. >=20 > It's misleading because you misunderstand what is "safe" at buffer > save time. No, it's misleading because Emacs didn't say that data were lost when visiting the file. --=20 Vincent Lef=E8vre - Web: 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)