From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#3501: 23.0.94; Use Unicode in Info (?) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:17:05 +0000 Message-ID: <20090609181705.GD11634@muc.de> References: <20090609171758.GB11634@muc.de> <4A0B2BEF97F8491FA12CBE48BBCE7EC9@us.oracle.com> Reply-To: Alan Mackenzie , 3501@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1244572748 24351 80.91.229.12 (9 Jun 2009 18:39:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:39:08 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 3501@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jun 09 20:39:04 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1ME6Du-00014T-Rb for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:39:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47177 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ME6Dt-0002FS-Uj for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:39:01 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1ME6CN-0000V5-Dy for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:37:27 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1ME6CI-0000Ld-As for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:37:26 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=34515 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ME6CI-0000LN-5k for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:37:22 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu ([138.23.92.77]:42760) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1ME6CH-0000sM-J6 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:37:21 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu (rzlab.ucr.edu [127.0.0.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n59IbJ3T012893; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:37:19 -0700 Original-Received: (from debbugs@localhost) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n59IP5jK011007; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:25:05 -0700 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Resent-From: Alan Mackenzie Resent-To: bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:25:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 3501 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 3501-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B3501.124457135710234 (code B ref 3501); Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:25:05 +0000 Original-Received: (at 3501) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 9 Jun 2009 18:15:57 +0000 X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. Original-Received: from mail.muc.de (qmailr@colin.muc.de [193.149.48.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n59IFqR1010228 for <3501@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:15:53 -0700 Original-Received: (qmail 87635 invoked by uid 3782); 9 Jun 2009 18:15:51 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9E234E7.dip.t-dialin.net [217.226.52.231]) by colin2.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:15:49 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 14910 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Jun 2009 18:17:05 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4A0B2BEF97F8491FA12CBE48BBCE7EC9@us.oracle.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.5 (Fettercairn) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by rzlab.ucr.edu id n59IbJ3T012893 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) Resent-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:37:26 -0400 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:28597 Archived-At: 'Evening, Drew! On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 10:43:01AM -0700, Drew Adams wrote: > > Please no. I absolutely do not want to "experience" fancy=20 > > unicode characters when reading info. It's bad enough > > getting them in email and in usenet postings from Xah Lee. ;-) > What'll you tell your new Unicode toaster, when your old toaster > breaks? ;-) Better give up on iPhone and other such new-fangled gadgets > altogether. Exactly the same I told the old toaster: they both understand ASCII. > > ASCII can be displayed perfectly on any screen or teletype or even > > punched card puncher that can display English at all. Unicode, by > > contrast, needs a fancy setup, even if lots of computers already have > > such a setup. > Isn't Emacs capable of somehow knowing whether the current display can > show non-ASCII chars? If not, we'll forever remain with > horse-and-buggy, I guess. Emacs is capable of anything, provided you put enough effort into telling it. Assuming you're running on a pure ASCII display, or one running an ISO-8859 character set (as I do), how much effort must you put into telling Emacs (and standalone Info) that you really, really don't want random Unicode bytes cluttering up your screen?=20 > I'm not against coddling your sturdy old card punch, but not at the > price of giving up the world beyond ASCII for the rest of, well, the > world beyond ASCII (does your punch _really_ speak ASCII, or does it > speak EBCDIC or perhaps Univac field-data chars?). > Would you by the same token remove the possibility of Emacs files to > use Unicode chars? Not at all. Quite a lot of people want Unicode, but quite a lot don't. We shouldn't force it upon them. =20 > Library buff-menu.el uses utf-8 encoding, for example, and displays a > U+2014 (em dash char) if available. It tests like this: > ;; Use U+2014 (EM DASH) to underline if possible, > ;; else use ASCII (i.e. U+002D, HYPHEN-MINUS). > (if (char-displayable-p ?\u2014) ?\u2014 ?-) > Presumably something similar (but preferably more general) can be done > to ensure that your card punch can swallow J/orgensen if it can't > digest J=F8rgensen. Who's volunteering to do this? > > Is that bad? J/orgensen is more readable (IMHO) than J=C0=ABrgensen = (or > > whatever that letter's two bytes actually are). > J=F8rgensen is more readable than J/orgensen, but J/orgensen is fine fo= r > a card punch. ;-) Possibly. But I have just the _tiniest_ suspicion that this is the thin end of the wedge, the crack in the dyke, the floodgates wanting to burst open. How long before people start using Xah's fancy 3-byte quote marks, with associated dangly bits hanging off them? --=20 Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).