* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
@ 2019-05-24 19:51 Bob Proulx
2019-05-24 20:47 ` npostavs
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Bob Proulx @ 2019-05-24 19:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 35887
In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is
a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings
to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the
buffer.
Please revert this. Users that wish it are free to enable it.
Yes I know I can disable it. For others looking and finding this
message this following will disable it.
(setq global-eldoc-mode nil)
But one should not always have to be disabling annoying features.
People should be required to enable annoying features.
Line from the movie Ready Player One that I think applies. Suits in a
boardroom meeting. "We have found that we can obscure up to 80% of the
user's vision with advertisements before seizures occur."
Bob
In GNU Emacs 26.1 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, Xaw3d scroll bars)
of 2019-02-03, modified by Debian built on zam904
System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster)
Recent messages:
Composing main Info directory...done
Mark saved where search started [2 times]
Mark set
next-line: End of buffer [3 times]
Saving file /home/bob/.timelog...
Wrote /home/bob/.timelog
Saving file /home/bob/.timelog...
Wrote /home/bob/.timelog
You can run the command ‘timeclock-change’ with C-x t c
Wrote /home/bob/.timelog
Configured using:
'configure --build x86_64-linux-gnu --prefix=/usr
--sharedstatedir=/var/lib --libexecdir=/usr/lib
--localstatedir=/var/lib --infodir=/usr/share/info
--mandir=/usr/share/man --enable-libsystemd --with-pop=yes
--enable-locallisppath=/etc/emacs:/usr/local/share/emacs/26.1/site-lisp:/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/26.1/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp
--with-sound=alsa --without-gconf --with-mailutils --build
x86_64-linux-gnu --prefix=/usr --sharedstatedir=/var/lib
--libexecdir=/usr/lib --localstatedir=/var/lib
--infodir=/usr/share/info --mandir=/usr/share/man --enable-libsystemd
--with-pop=yes
--enable-locallisppath=/etc/emacs:/usr/local/share/emacs/26.1/site-lisp:/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/26.1/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp
--with-sound=alsa --without-gconf --with-mailutils --with-x=yes
--with-x-toolkit=lucid --with-toolkit-scroll-bars --without-gsettings
'CFLAGS=-g -O2
-fdebug-prefix-map=/build/emacs-26.1+1=. -fstack-protector-strong
-Wformat -Werror=format-security -Wall' 'CPPFLAGS=-Wdate-time
-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2' LDFLAGS=-Wl,-z,relro'
Configured features:
XAW3D XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG IMAGEMAGICK SOUND GPM DBUS NOTIFY ACL
LIBSELINUX GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE M17N_FLT LIBOTF XFT ZLIB
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS LUCID X11 THREADS LIBSYSTEMD LCMS2
Important settings:
value of $LC_COLLATE: C
value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
Major mode: Fundamental
Minor modes in effect:
display-time-mode: t
tooltip-mode: t
global-eldoc-mode: t
mouse-wheel-mode: t
tool-bar-mode: t
file-name-shadow-mode: t
global-font-lock-mode: t
font-lock-mode: t
auto-composition-mode: t
auto-encryption-mode: t
auto-compression-mode: t
line-number-mode: t
Load-path shadows:
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/debian-el-37/debian-autoloads hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/dpkg-dev-el-37.0/debian-autoloads
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/fsm-0.2.1/fsm hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/jabber-0.8.92/fsm
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/apache-mode-2.1/apache-mode-pkg hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/apache-mode-2.1/apache-mode-pkg
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/apache-mode-2.1/apache-mode hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/apache-mode-2.1/apache-mode
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/apache-mode-2.1/apache-mode-autoloads hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/apache-mode-2.1/apache-mode-autoloads
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/async-1.9.3/smtpmail-async hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/async-1.9.3/smtpmail-async
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/async-1.9.3/async-bytecomp hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/async-1.9.3/async-bytecomp
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/async-1.9.3/dired-async hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/async-1.9.3/dired-async
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/async-1.9.3/async-pkg hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/async-1.9.3/async-pkg
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/async-1.9.3/async hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/async-1.9.3/async
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/async-1.9.3/async-autoloads hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/async-1.9.3/async-autoloads
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/bar-cursor-2.0/bar-cursor-pkg hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/bar-cursor-2.0/bar-cursor-pkg
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/bar-cursor-2.0/bar-cursor hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/bar-cursor-2.0/bar-cursor
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/bar-cursor-2.0/bar-cursor-autoloads hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/bar-cursor-2.0/bar-cursor-autoloads
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/bm-201808/bm-autoloads hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/bm-201808/bm-autoloads
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/bm-201808/bm-pkg hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/bm-201808/bm-pkg
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/boxquote-2.1/boxquote-pkg hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/boxquote-2.1/boxquote-pkg
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/browse-kill-ring-2.0.0/browse-kill-ring-pkg hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/browse-kill-ring-2.0.0/browse-kill-ring-pkg
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/browse-kill-ring-2.0.0/browse-kill-ring-autoloads hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/browse-kill-ring-2.0.0/browse-kill-ring-autoloads
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/csv-mode-1.7/csv-mode-pkg hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/csv-mode-1.7/csv-mode-pkg
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/csv-mode-1.7/csv-mode hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/csv-mode-1.7/csv-mode
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/csv-mode-1.7/csv-mode-autoloads hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/csv-mode-1.7/csv-mode-autoloads
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/debian-el-37/debian-autoloads hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/debian-el-37/debian-autoloads
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/debian-el-37/debian-el-autoloads hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/debian-el-37/debian-el-autoloads
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/debian-el-37/apt-sources hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/debian-el-37/apt-sources
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/debian-el-37/debian-bug hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/debian-el-37/debian-bug
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/debian-el-37/gnus-BTS hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/debian-el-37/gnus-BTS
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/debian-el-37/apt-utils hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/debian-el-37/apt-utils
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/debian-el-37/debian-el hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/debian-el-37/debian-el
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/debian-el-37/deb-view hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/debian-el-37/deb-view
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/debian-el-37/preseed hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/debian-el-37/preseed
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/debian-el-37/debian-el-pkg hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/debian-el-37/debian-el-pkg
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/devscripts-40/pbuilder-mode hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/devscripts-40/pbuilder-mode
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/devscripts-40/devscripts hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/devscripts-40/devscripts
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/devscripts-40/devscripts-autoloads hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/devscripts-40/devscripts-autoloads
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/devscripts-40/pbuilder-log-view-mode hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/devscripts-40/pbuilder-log-view-mode
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/diminish-0.45/diminish-autoloads hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/diminish-0.45/diminish-autoloads
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/diminish-0.45/diminish hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/diminish-0.45/diminish
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/diminish-0.45/diminish-pkg hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/diminish-0.45/diminish-pkg
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/debian-el-37/debian-autoloads hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/dpkg-dev-el-37.0/debian-autoloads
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/dpkg-dev-el-37.0/debian-copyright hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/dpkg-dev-el-37.0/debian-copyright
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/dpkg-dev-el-37.0/debian-changelog-mode hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/dpkg-dev-el-37.0/debian-changelog-mode
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/dpkg-dev-el-37.0/dpkg-dev-el-pkg hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/dpkg-dev-el-37.0/dpkg-dev-el-pkg
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/dpkg-dev-el-37.0/readme-debian hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/dpkg-dev-el-37.0/readme-debian
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/dpkg-dev-el-37.0/debian-control-mode hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/dpkg-dev-el-37.0/debian-control-mode
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/dpkg-dev-el-37.0/dpkg-dev-el-autoloads hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/dpkg-dev-el-37.0/dpkg-dev-el-autoloads
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/tabbar-20160524/aquamacs-tools hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/tabbar-20160524/aquamacs-tools
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/flim/hex-util hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/hex-util
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Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug message rmc puny dired dired-loaddefs
format-spec rfc822 mml mml-sec epa derived epg gnus-util rmail
rmail-loaddefs mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231
mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums
mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils misearch multi-isearch jka-compr
ebuff-menu timeclock term/screen term/xterm xterm time-date elec-pair
finder-inf dpkg-dev-el info debian-el muse-autoloads package easymenu
epg-config url-handlers url-parse auth-source cl-seq eieio eieio-core
cl-macs eieio-loaddefs password-cache url-vars seq byte-opt gv bytecomp
byte-compile cconv cl-loaddefs cl-lib time t-mouse remember-autoloads
w3m-load erc-auto mule-util tooltip eldoc electric uniquify ediff-hook
vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel term/x-win x-win term/common-win x-dnd
tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace
newcomment text-mode elisp-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page
menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock
font-lock syntax facemenu font-core term/tty-colors frame cl-generic
cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao
korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech
european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite charscript charprop
case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray minibuffer
cl-preloaded nadvice loaddefs button faces cus-face macroexp files
text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule
custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote dbusbind inotify lcms2
dynamic-setting font-render-setting x-toolkit x multi-tty
make-network-process emacs)
Memory information:
((conses 16 173340 8996)
(symbols 48 23043 1)
(miscs 40 69 342)
(strings 32 41456 1758)
(string-bytes 1 1182643)
(vectors 16 15579)
(vector-slots 8 484842 5230)
(floats 8 79 295)
(intervals 56 12955 0)
(buffers 992 15))
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-05-24 19:51 bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Bob Proulx
@ 2019-05-24 20:47 ` npostavs
2019-05-24 21:35 ` Bob Proulx
2019-05-27 3:23 ` Drew Adams
2020-08-16 10:16 ` Stefan Kangas
2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: npostavs @ 2019-05-24 20:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bob Proulx; +Cc: 35887
Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:
> In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is
> a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings
> to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the
> buffer.
Your description of "flashing" suggests that maybe you some graphical
glitching? When I see the eldoc text show up in the minibuffer there is
nothing that I would call "flashing". The text just appears normally.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-05-24 20:47 ` npostavs
@ 2019-05-24 21:35 ` Bob Proulx
2019-05-24 22:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Bob Proulx @ 2019-05-24 21:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: npostavs; +Cc: 35887
npostavs@gmail.com wrote:
> Bob Proulx writes:
> > In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is
> > a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings
> > to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the
> > buffer.
>
> Your description of "flashing" suggests that maybe you some graphical
> glitching? When I see the eldoc text show up in the minibuffer there is
> nothing that I would call "flashing". The text just appears normally.
You misunderstand my words. I said "as the point moves around in the
buffer". Which means that this is due to the point moving around the
buffer. This is not a graphics artifact. To test this use text mode
emacs in a text terminal to ensure that you will have no graphics
artifacts from emacs.
Let's assume an elisp construct. Put the cursor on the (defun line
then move down to the doc string line. The second line in the below.
(defun unfill-paragraph (&optional region) ; Thanks to Stefan Monnier
"Takes a multi-line paragraph and makes it into a single line of text."
(interactive (progn (barf-if-buffer-read-only) '(t)))
(let ((fill-column (point-max))
;; This would override `fill-column' if it's an integer.
(emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column t))
(fill-paragraph nil region)))
The following string appears in the minibuffer. The DOCSTRING word is
highlighted.
defun: (NAME ARGLIST &optional *DOCSTRING* DECL &rest BODY)
C-n or Down-Arrow to move to the next line. This then appears in the
minibuffer.
defun: (NAME ARGLIST &optional DOCSTRING *DECL* &rest BODY)
The DECL word is hightlighted. C-n again.
defun: (NAME ARGLIST &optional DOCSTRING DECL &rest *BODY*)
The BODY word is highlighted. C-n again. On the comment line. The
minibuffer is cleared. No message there.
C-n again. No message. C-n again. The flil-paragraph line. The
following appears. The BODY word is highlighted.
let: (VARLIST *BODY*...)
C-n again. Blank line. The minibuffer is cleared.
The above is a small snippet I selected for this example. But now do
this through a large elisp file. With every C-n next-line movement
the minibuffer is displaying or clearing a doc string hint. With
every next-line movement the highlighted word in the minibuffer is
moving from one word to another word.
This is driving me crazy! This continous activity, changing, and
flashing is extremely annoying.
The minibuffer is where I expect to find useful editor feedback. When
things happen there I look to see what it is telling me. Sometimes it
is an error message. Sometimes it is direct dialog interaction such
as for find-file. Sometimes it is simply information such as "Mark
set". But with global-eldoc-mode enabled it is continously posting
distractions in the minibuffer that I must look at, read and
comprehend, and then ignore. This increases the editing workload.
This increases use fatigue.
Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode.
Bob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-05-24 21:35 ` Bob Proulx
@ 2019-05-24 22:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-24 23:24 ` Bob Proulx
2019-05-25 2:21 ` Noam Postavsky
2019-05-25 8:00 ` martin rudalics
2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2019-05-24 22:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bob Proulx, npostavs; +Cc: 35887
On 25.05.2019 0:35, Bob Proulx wrote:
> Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode.
So... do you not like ElDoc at all?
AFAIK, it's a fairly popular feature. And Emacs 26.1 was released a year
ago already. I think you're the first user to complain about this new
default.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-05-24 22:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
@ 2019-05-24 23:24 ` Bob Proulx
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Bob Proulx @ 2019-05-24 23:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dmitry Gutov; +Cc: 35887
Dmitry Gutov wrote:
> Bob Proulx wrote:
> > Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode.
>
> So... do you not like ElDoc at all?
I haven't tried eldoc-mode so I don't know. I know that I do NOT like
the over-exuberance of global-eldoc-mode on elisp files. It is
global-eldoc-mode that I am talking about here.
Normally when I want to look up the syntax of "if" or "let" as is the
majority of the noise from global-eldoc-mode, I put the cursor on the
function and then C-h f RET to look at the help for that function.
It's quick and simple and gives even more information than the syntax
hint given by global-eldoc-mode. And of course that works for the
more interesting and complex functions one might need a reminder about
too.
> AFAIK, it's a fairly popular feature. And Emacs 26.1 was released a year ago
> already. I think you're the first user to complain about this new default.
I am one of the many users of the stable distributions. Today was the
first day that I experienced this behavior. I don't usually make
these types of bug reports. I usually just suck it up and silently
increase the size of my .emacs file with the code to fix the problem.
I did that again today because switching to fundamental-mode was even
more annoying.
But today I was annoyed enough to submit a bug report. I email'd a
friend and he is still using emacs 24 so wasn't seeing this yet but
thanked me for the information for when he must upgrade futher. I
know that there are a large number of users in addition to me that is
not leading on the bleeding edge builds and will eventually see this
as yet another nuiscance that makes Emacs tedious to use. Yet another
customization that is required before Emacs is usable.
While many people live on the bleeding edge a large number of us like
stability. I have 3846 unique packages installed on my desktop. Must
I track the bleeding edge for all of them in order to keep up with
development changes such as this?
Bob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-05-24 21:35 ` Bob Proulx
2019-05-24 22:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
@ 2019-05-25 2:21 ` Noam Postavsky
2019-05-25 6:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-25 8:00 ` martin rudalics
2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Noam Postavsky @ 2019-05-25 2:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bob Proulx; +Cc: 35887
Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:
> This is driving me crazy! This continous activity, changing, and
> flashing is extremely annoying.
>
> The minibuffer is where I expect to find useful editor feedback.
[...]
> But with global-eldoc-mode enabled it is continously posting
> distractions in the minibuffer that I must look at, read and
> comprehend, and then ignore. This increases the editing workload.
> This increases use fatigue.
>
> Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode.
Hmm, well I like the current default. I find it annoying when I'm
troubleshooting with 'emacs -Q' in older Emacs versions that eldoc isn't
enabled. But I could live with having to turn it on in my init file.
Not really sure on what basis we could decide on the default (sometimes
people throw out the suggestion of polling the users, but I don't know
of any practical way of getting a representative sample).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-05-25 2:21 ` Noam Postavsky
@ 2019-05-25 6:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-26 11:51 ` Basil L. Contovounesios
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2019-05-25 6:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Noam Postavsky; +Cc: 35887, bob
> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 22:21:50 -0400
> Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org
>
> > Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode.
>
> Hmm, well I like the current default.
I find it handy when writing Lisp code, yes.
> I find it annoying when I'm troubleshooting with 'emacs -Q' in older
> Emacs versions that eldoc isn't enabled.
I think "emacs -Q" should turn off both global-eldoc-mode and
blink-cursor mode. But that's a different issue, IMO, which is worth
a separate bug report.
> Not really sure on what basis we could decide on the default (sometimes
> people throw out the suggestion of polling the users, but I don't know
> of any practical way of getting a representative sample).
The only way to decide how many people find it annoying is to wait for
more complaints. For now, we have only one, and that's not enough to
decide to revert a feature. Sorry, Bob.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-05-25 6:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2019-05-26 11:51 ` Basil L. Contovounesios
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Basil L. Contovounesios @ 2019-05-26 11:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 35887, Noam Postavsky, bob
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@gmail.com>
>> Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 22:21:50 -0400
>> Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org
>>
>> > Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode.
>>
>> Hmm, well I like the current default.
>
> I find it handy when writing Lisp code, yes.
>
>> I find it annoying when I'm troubleshooting with 'emacs -Q' in older
>> Emacs versions that eldoc isn't enabled.
>
> I think "emacs -Q" should turn off both global-eldoc-mode and
> blink-cursor mode. But that's a different issue, IMO, which is worth
> a separate bug report.
+1 on both counts.
--
Basil
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-05-24 21:35 ` Bob Proulx
2019-05-24 22:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-25 2:21 ` Noam Postavsky
@ 2019-05-25 8:00 ` martin rudalics
2019-05-27 20:30 ` Juri Linkov
2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: martin rudalics @ 2019-05-25 8:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bob Proulx, npostavs; +Cc: 35887
> The minibuffer is where I expect to find useful editor feedback. When
> things happen there I look to see what it is telling me. Sometimes it
> is an error message. Sometimes it is direct dialog interaction such
> as for find-file. Sometimes it is simply information such as "Mark
> set". But with global-eldoc-mode enabled it is continously posting
> distractions in the minibuffer that I must look at, read and
> comprehend, and then ignore. This increases the editing workload.
> This increases use fatigue.
I find error messages like "Beginning of buffer" (and the accompanying
beep) and informative messages like "Mark set" much more annoying.
What's worse: I see no practical way to turn these off which means
that I have to decide whether I want to use the mouse-wheel to scroll
an Emacs buffer or to switch off my loudspeakers. And obviously the
echo area and the *Messages* buffer get crowded with these completely
useless (for me) informations.
So while I agree with you that ‘global-eldoc-mode’ should never have
been enabled by default, I consider it a minor annoyance compared to
the ones I described above. At least you've found out how to turn it
off.
martin
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-05-25 8:00 ` martin rudalics
@ 2019-05-27 20:30 ` Juri Linkov
2019-05-27 22:31 ` Drew Adams
2019-06-04 8:21 ` martin rudalics
0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Juri Linkov @ 2019-05-27 20:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: martin rudalics; +Cc: 35887, npostavs, Bob Proulx
>> The minibuffer is where I expect to find useful editor feedback. When
>> things happen there I look to see what it is telling me. Sometimes it
>> is an error message. Sometimes it is direct dialog interaction such
>> as for find-file. Sometimes it is simply information such as "Mark
>> set". But with global-eldoc-mode enabled it is continously posting
>> distractions in the minibuffer that I must look at, read and
>> comprehend, and then ignore. This increases the editing workload.
>> This increases use fatigue.
>
> I find error messages like "Beginning of buffer" (and the accompanying
> beep) and informative messages like "Mark set" much more annoying.
> What's worse: I see no practical way to turn these off which means
> that I have to decide whether I want to use the mouse-wheel to scroll
> an Emacs buffer or to switch off my loudspeakers. And obviously the
> echo area and the *Messages* buffer get crowded with these completely
> useless (for me) informations.
Why customizing inhibit-message to t doesn't inhibit these messages?
> So while I agree with you that ‘global-eldoc-mode’ should never have
> been enabled by default, I consider it a minor annoyance compared to
> the ones I described above. At least you've found out how to turn it
> off.
I turn ‘global-eldoc-mode’ off too, but I think it should be enabled
by default to demonstrate to newbies that Emacs has the same feature
that their IDEs have.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-05-27 20:30 ` Juri Linkov
@ 2019-05-27 22:31 ` Drew Adams
2019-05-28 15:54 ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2019-06-04 8:21 ` martin rudalics
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2019-05-27 22:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Juri Linkov, martin rudalics; +Cc: 35887, npostavs, Bob Proulx
> I turn ‘global-eldoc-mode’ off too, but I think it should be enabled
> by default to demonstrate to newbies that Emacs has the same feature
> that their IDEs have.
Fair enough. But on the flip side, better that a
newbie should learn, early, that there is much more
to Emacs than first meets the eye. And learn, early
on, how to discover for herself such non-default
features.
I disagree, in general (yes, abstractly, and such
things should really be decided mostly case by case),
with the idea of showing things initially just to be
sure users notice them.
That's not a strong reason. We sometimes hear it
espoused also as a reason for turning on some shiny
new behavior: so users will notice it. Not a great
reason, on its own. We have NEWS for that (and
Sacha's tangents newsletter and...
___
As for discoverability (a larger question) -
1. There's little substitute now for a newbie learning
the help keys (`C-h`...) at the outset.
2. Menus can help.
3. Google etc. help (word-of-mouth in our era).
4. But Emacs could offer more aids to discoverability.
Instead of turning things on by default so users
can easily see they exist, we'd be better off adding
more discovery help. (Emacs is, after all, the
self-documenting editor.)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-05-27 22:31 ` Drew Adams
@ 2019-05-28 15:54 ` Basil L. Contovounesios
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Basil L. Contovounesios @ 2019-05-28 15:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 35887, npostavs, Bob Proulx, Juri Linkov
Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
>> I turn ‘global-eldoc-mode’ off too, but I think it should be enabled
>> by default to demonstrate to newbies that Emacs has the same feature
>> that their IDEs have.
>
> Fair enough. But on the flip side, better that a
> newbie should learn, early, that there is much more
> to Emacs than first meets the eye. And learn, early
> on, how to discover for herself such non-default
> features.
>
> I disagree, in general (yes, abstractly, and such
> things should really be decided mostly case by case),
> with the idea of showing things initially just to be
> sure users notice them.
>
> That's not a strong reason. We sometimes hear it
> espoused also as a reason for turning on some shiny
> new behavior: so users will notice it. Not a great
> reason, on its own. We have NEWS for that (and
> Sacha's tangents newsletter and...
I'm not sure if the following philosophy is documented anywhere, but my
personal impression is that it is considered more Emacs-y to default to
disabling most shiny features, lest they come across as annoying or
intrusive, and let each user pick and mix what they like.
I agree with that, so I sympathise with the annoyance of enabling
global-eldoc-mode by default, but in this case I feel like that ship has
already sailed, and that global-eldoc-mode is useful enough in the
general case that it might be worse to disable it again at this point.
--
Basil
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-05-27 20:30 ` Juri Linkov
2019-05-27 22:31 ` Drew Adams
@ 2019-06-04 8:21 ` martin rudalics
2019-06-04 13:30 ` Dmitry Gutov
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: martin rudalics @ 2019-06-04 8:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Juri Linkov; +Cc: 35887, npostavs, Bob Proulx
>> I find error messages like "Beginning of buffer" (and the accompanying
>> beep) and informative messages like "Mark set" much more annoying.
>> What's worse: I see no practical way to turn these off which means
>> that I have to decide whether I want to use the mouse-wheel to scroll
>> an Emacs buffer or to switch off my loudspeakers. And obviously the
>> echo area and the *Messages* buffer get crowded with these completely
>> useless (for me) informations.
>
> Why customizing inhibit-message to t doesn't inhibit these messages?
Do you mean to bind that variable around all calls that I find
annoying? It would take me days to identify them, write the functions
and the bindings ...
Anyway. Would you consider an application like Firefox operational if
you launch it for the first time in your live, spin your mouse-wheel
to find out whether there's something below the part you see on your
screen and get a bell ringing and the information that you are at the
end of a thing called "buffer"? Or that after selecting some text
with the mouse you just have "Mark set"?
I think that people need strong nerves to survive their first use of
Emacs. But maybe that's the idea, only the fittest survive ...
martin
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-06-04 8:21 ` martin rudalics
@ 2019-06-04 13:30 ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-06-05 21:06 ` Juri Linkov
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2019-06-04 13:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: martin rudalics, Juri Linkov; +Cc: 35887, npostavs, Bob Proulx
On 04.06.2019 11:21, martin rudalics wrote:
> Would you consider an application like Firefox operational if
> you launch it for the first time in your live, spin your mouse-wheel
> to find out whether there's something below the part you see on your
> screen and get a bell ringing and the information that you are at the
> end of a thing called "buffer"? Or that after selecting some text
> with the mouse you just have "Mark set"?
It almost feels like the general approach for a long time has been to
compensate the general "clunkiness" (or at least peculiarity) of some UI
corners with extra verbosity.
It's like the program is saying "it's okay if we're doing unusual
things, but we'll tell you everything we're doing along the way".
I don't find it jarring myself, but we could probably do better.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-06-04 13:30 ` Dmitry Gutov
@ 2019-06-05 21:06 ` Juri Linkov
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Juri Linkov @ 2019-06-05 21:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dmitry Gutov; +Cc: 35887, npostavs, Bob Proulx
>> Would you consider an application like Firefox operational if
>> you launch it for the first time in your live, spin your mouse-wheel
>> to find out whether there's something below the part you see on your
>> screen and get a bell ringing and the information that you are at the
>> end of a thing called "buffer"? Or that after selecting some text
>> with the mouse you just have "Mark set"?
>
> It almost feels like the general approach for a long time has been to
> compensate the general "clunkiness" (or at least peculiarity) of some UI
> corners with extra verbosity.
>
> It's like the program is saying "it's okay if we're doing unusual things,
> but we'll tell you everything we're doing along the way".
>
> I don't find it jarring myself, but we could probably do better.
Sometimes such verbosity is justified. For example, when on exiting
Isearch displays a reminder "Mark saved where search started".
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-05-24 19:51 bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Bob Proulx
2019-05-24 20:47 ` npostavs
@ 2019-05-27 3:23 ` Drew Adams
2020-08-16 10:16 ` Stefan Kangas
2 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2019-05-27 3:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bob Proulx, 35887
> Please revert this. Users that wish it are free to enable it.
Absolutely. +1.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2019-05-24 19:51 bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Bob Proulx
2019-05-24 20:47 ` npostavs
2019-05-27 3:23 ` Drew Adams
@ 2020-08-16 10:16 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-08-16 14:32 ` Drew Adams
2020-08-16 14:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2020-08-16 10:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bob Proulx; +Cc: 35887
Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:
> In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is
> a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings
> to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the
> buffer.
>
> Please revert this.
This has now been the default since 26.1. Users will have gotten used
to it, and it has seen only few complaints. It is easy enough to
disable it for those that really don't like it.
I therefore propose to close this as wontfix.
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2020-08-16 10:16 ` Stefan Kangas
@ 2020-08-16 14:32 ` Drew Adams
2020-08-16 16:12 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-08-16 14:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2020-08-16 14:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stefan Kangas, Bob Proulx; +Cc: 35887
> Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:
>
> > In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is
> > a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings
> > to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the
> > buffer.
> >
> > Please revert this.
>
> This has now been the default since 26.1. Users will have gotten used
> to it, and it has seen only few complaints. It is easy enough to
> disable it for those that really don't like it.
>
> I therefore propose to close this as wontfix.
+1 to DISable it by default, IOW revert to normal,
longstanding Emacs behavior. There was no reason to
enable it by default. It's easy enough to ENable.
Such things should be opt-in. Heck, we still don't
even have `delete-selection-mode' on by default.
And it took _decades_ to get `transient-mark-mode'
on by default. What's so special about this that
it was turned on by default?
Arguments of "has been the default since 26.1" and
"it has seen only few complaints" are pretty
shallow. For Emacs, 26.1 is, as Bob said, a recent
release. Until a few days ago 26.3 was the _current_
release.
Such overeagerness to change default Emacs behavior
should really be curbed. Please add my +1 voice to
the "few complaints" about this kind of change.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2020-08-16 14:32 ` Drew Adams
@ 2020-08-16 16:12 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Kévin Le Gouguec @ 2020-08-16 16:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: Stefan Kangas, 35887, Bob Proulx
Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
>> Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:
>>
>> > In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is
>> > a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings
>> > to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the
>> > buffer.
>> >
>> > Please revert this.
>>
>> This has now been the default since 26.1. Users will have gotten used
>> to it, and it has seen only few complaints. It is easy enough to
>> disable it for those that really don't like it.
>>
>> I therefore propose to close this as wontfix.
>
> +1 to DISable it by default, IOW revert to normal,
> longstanding Emacs behavior. There was no reason to
> enable it by default. It's easy enough to ENable.
>
> Such things should be opt-in.
FWIW, I find eldoc's echo-area hints rather useful and, more
importantly, innocuous.
I don't have a problem with Emacs enabling features by default; it seems
fair to me for Emacs to enable unobtrusive features on the off chance
that it helps someone, as long as they're easy to disable for users who
dislike them (and I can understand disliking the echo-area agitation).
IMO Eldoc is no worse than e.g. the menu bar or the tool bar. I don't
find those bars worth the space they take, but I'm sure they help plenty
of people, and I'll gladly endure the two-line penalty to my config to
hide them if showing them by default helps enough users.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2020-08-16 10:16 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-08-16 14:32 ` Drew Adams
@ 2020-08-16 14:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-01 12:27 ` Stefan Kangas
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2020-08-16 14:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: 35887, bob
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 03:16:03 -0700
> Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org
>
> This has now been the default since 26.1. Users will have gotten used
> to it, and it has seen only few complaints. It is easy enough to
> disable it for those that really don't like it.
>
> I therefore propose to close this as wontfix.
I agree.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying
2020-08-16 14:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2020-10-01 12:27 ` Stefan Kangas
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2020-10-01 12:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 35887, bob
tags 35887 wontfix notabug
close 35887
thanks
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
>> Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 03:16:03 -0700
>> Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org
>>
>> This has now been the default since 26.1. Users will have gotten used
>> to it, and it has seen only few complaints. It is easy enough to
>> disable it for those that really don't like it.
>>
>> I therefore propose to close this as wontfix.
>
> I agree.
Done.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2020-10-01 12:27 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 21+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2019-05-24 19:51 bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Bob Proulx
2019-05-24 20:47 ` npostavs
2019-05-24 21:35 ` Bob Proulx
2019-05-24 22:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-05-24 23:24 ` Bob Proulx
2019-05-25 2:21 ` Noam Postavsky
2019-05-25 6:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-05-26 11:51 ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2019-05-25 8:00 ` martin rudalics
2019-05-27 20:30 ` Juri Linkov
2019-05-27 22:31 ` Drew Adams
2019-05-28 15:54 ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2019-06-04 8:21 ` martin rudalics
2019-06-04 13:30 ` Dmitry Gutov
2019-06-05 21:06 ` Juri Linkov
2019-05-27 3:23 ` Drew Adams
2020-08-16 10:16 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-08-16 14:32 ` Drew Adams
2020-08-16 16:12 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-08-16 14:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-01 12:27 ` Stefan Kangas
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