From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#19682: 25.0.50; `other-window' doc string should say that by default it selects win in same frame Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 15:40:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1c4fcb28-17c3-48a6-81c2-c21376e5ac11@default> References: <> <<83iofur7aj.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1422229276 26871 80.91.229.3 (25 Jan 2015 23:41:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 23:41:16 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 19682@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 26 00:41:13 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YFWnn-0000Cn-Vw for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 00:41:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39344 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YFWnn-0003Lv-AU for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 18:41:11 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40366) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YFWnj-0003Kz-Jq for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 18:41:08 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YFWng-0007j7-Co for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 18:41:07 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:37630) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YFWng-0007iy-9A for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 18:41:04 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFWnf-0004Qx-KS for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 18:41:03 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 23:41:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 19682 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 19682-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B19682.142222922116974 (code B ref 19682); Sun, 25 Jan 2015 23:41:03 +0000 Original-Received: (at 19682) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2015 23:40:21 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56321 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFWmx-0004Pf-LA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 18:40:20 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:32773) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFWms-0004PI-IZ for 19682@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 18:40:15 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t0PNe8D4018262 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 25 Jan 2015 23:40:08 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t0PNe7an027474 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jan 2015 23:40:08 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t0PNe7Fd014090; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 23:40:07 GMT In-Reply-To: <<83iofur7aj.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:98732 Archived-At: > I don't see why this single details matters more than the others. That is apparently, the problem here - you don't see it. The answer to "Why?" is that this information is very useful and yet not obvious. This is the primary use case for the command - hence the chosen default behavior. A user looking for a command that cycles among all windows in the same frame will not necessarily understand, immediately upon reading `C-h f other-window', that that is what this command does. The only way for a user to discover that this is the case, by default, is to read through the relatively esoteric and much rarer use-case descriptions involving all of the following: 1. The `other-window' _window parameter_, something that is not even mentioned in the Emacs manual (and rightfully so). (It is of course mentioned in the Elisp manual, though you will find that even there (node `Window Parameters') nothing is really said about what that parameter is (!), what its possible values are, or how it is used - another doc bug, IMO. Nothing is really said in node `Window Parameters' about what window parameters are, AFAICT. The example of parameter `other-window' is typical here: All that is said about it in `Window Parameters' is that it "affects the execution of `other-window'" (really? how?). The xref'd node (`Cyclic Window Ordering') and this node just pass the ball back and forth without, either of them, actually explaining anything.) 2. The (even rarer) possibility that window parameter `other-window' can be a function. (Again, nothing is said here or in the Elisp manual about where or how that function is used.) 3. Non-option variable `ignore-window-parameters' (again, something (rightfully) not even mentioned in the Emacs manual). 4. Window parameter `no-other-window'. (Again,...) After trying to understand all of that, our poor reader finally gets to a reference to function `next-window' and its possible arguments. And after following that cross-reference and reading all about parameters ALL-FRAMES and MINIBUF she will (hopefully) finally grasp that command `other-window', by default, cycles among the windows of the selected frame. FWIW, the doc string from Emacs 20 was not deficient in this regard, so this but is in fact a (minor) regression. In Emacs 20, `C-h f other-window' tells you this: ,---- | other-window is an interactive built-in function. |=20 | Select the ARG'th different window on this frame. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | All windows on current frame are arranged in a cyclic order. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | This command selects the window ARG steps away in that order. | A negative ARG moves in the opposite order. If the optional | second argument ALL_FRAMES is non-nil, cycle through all frames. |=20 | (other-window ARG &optional ALL-FRAMES) `---- That follows the usual (traditional) approach in Emacs: The first line tells you about the default behavior. It does not try to provide an overview of all possible behavior. And it is fine if later sentences then qualify that initial description, even contradicting it to some extent where it might oversimplify. Contrast that with the first sentence for Emacs 25: "Select another window in cyclic ordering of windows." That suggests that someone wanted the sentence to cover all, or nearly all, possible behaviors. The result is that, at least without some further statement about the default behavior, users learn less than they should about the most important thing to learn: the default behavior. --- But it seems clear that there is little sense in continuing the dialog. I don't think I can say anything more than I have to persuade you, and you have apparently made up your mind not to see further. Thank you for anyway taking the time to think about it. I know that you, too, are busy with other, and more important, things.