From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#40671: [DOC] modify literal objects Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:59:55 +0200 Message-ID: <1E9E4C19-37C2-4E24-91B7-8101F9CFBF35@acm.org> References: <83tv1finob.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="88843"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: ke.vigouroux@laposte.net, Paul Eggert , 40671@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 19 19:01:11 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQDJe-000N1H-Qm for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 19:01:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45110 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQDJd-0005oo-GI for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:01:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49878 helo=eggs1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQDJX-0005mg-E9 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:01:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs1p.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQDJW-0005DE-8t for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:01:03 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:34272) by eggs1p.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQDJV-0005Cb-SE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:01:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jQDJV-00030W-Rg for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:01:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:01:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 40671 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch Original-Received: via spool by 40671-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B40671.158731563011513 (code B ref 40671); Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:01:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 40671) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2020 17:00:30 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45818 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jQDIz-0002zd-PE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:00:29 -0400 Original-Received: from mail1467c50.megamailservers.eu ([91.136.14.67]:58340 helo=mail268c50.megamailservers.eu) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jQDIw-0002zM-W2 for 40671@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:00:28 -0400 X-Authenticated-User: mattiase@bredband.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=megamailservers.eu; s=maildub; t=1587315609; bh=5C6DQcFpSKwv7E+zG2Ys/RzmuumSDjsVdE/fJZ7lGME=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=rBNkKDMLD5JrFEAui/td004xOII8ffS9ET3uXOUNfDX/ifGEzihilURO0bAskD8K1 yDP6UZBqdXaKvcVRZxtwe0aZMEKbZzE5f3vbSPQCk9LSa0o06A836gg5ioS/P5Sl2y fSYEJv08mYIAYR1d6+PmhCbeobeN4Y3j0XPBu4rQ= Feedback-ID: mattiase@acm.or Original-Received: from [192.168.0.4] (c188-150-171-71.bredband.comhem.se [188.150.171.71]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail268c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id 03JGxtMg020306; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:00:07 +0000 In-Reply-To: <83tv1finob.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A782F25.5E9C8354.0045, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CSC: 0 X-CHA: v=2.3 cv=BZ+mLYl2 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=SF+I6pRkHZhrawxbOkkvaA==:117 a=SF+I6pRkHZhrawxbOkkvaA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=M51BFTxLslgA:10 a=mDV3o1hIAAAA:8 a=5RbprDrcwj0rFHsqUqkA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=_FVE-zBwftR9WsbkzFJk:22 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:178658 Archived-At: 19 apr. 2020 kl. 15.56 skrev Eli Zaretskii : > This is a step backward. We are making our manual a riddle that the > reader will have to solve. That is not how good manuals are written. Eli, maybe that is stretching it a bit? Paul's (and my) changes are far = from perfect but they did aim to do no harm. Surely we all prefer = correct to simple and wrong. Mistakes must and will be fixed, naturally. Your point about not surprising the user about inconsistencies in = examples is entirely fair, and we should definitely explain these issues = more clearly and in the right order. However, it doesn't mean that the = status quo ante was better: not only did the manual set bad examples in = many places, it even managed to warn sternly about non-constant = arguments to nconc right after an example which did precisely that. What about we add a separate section about literals of all types, why = they should be treated as immutable even though mutation currently isn't = detected or disallowed at runtime, and recommended ways of coping with = it (constructor functions, copy-sequence)? It would serve as a point of = reference for all sections describing destructive operations. There is = also a need for some cautionary text in the backquote section. I'd volunteer to write it all but won't do the work just to have it shot = down on general principles. It's not like I'm expecting a blank cheque, = but we'd need to agree on the approach first.