From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#11482: 24.0.96; Keep `M-s' as a prefix key for search (conflict with Gnus) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:40:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <0e46790f-faa7-4008-9c37-f46be709513b@default> References: <703E3EF0C68345F2BC8A537EDBB42E54@us.oracle.com> <87fvntexkr.fsf@building.gnus.org> <8738jo1kmi.fsf@web.de> <8760y19f1e.fsf@gnus.org> <1c20b66c-da00-46fc-9888-8a42707ae9a8@default> <87a8nc56j5.fsf@gnus.org> <87twl3bz1a.fsf@gnus.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1455986489 11690 80.91.229.3 (20 Feb 2016 16:41:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:41:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Michael Heerdegen , 11482@debbugs.gnu.org To: John Wiegley , Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 20 17:41:16 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aXAan-0004zb-8q for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:41:13 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33992 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aXAam-0007Qp-Lc for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:41:12 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41294) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aXAag-0007Ou-7J for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:41:08 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aXAac-0002LS-Bn for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:41:06 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:38415) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aXAac-0002LM-8E for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:41:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aXAac-00025Y-36 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:41:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:41:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 11482 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix Original-Received: via spool by 11482-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B11482.14559864487996 (code B ref 11482); Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:41:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 11482) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2016 16:40:48 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35540 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aXAaK-00024j-GC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:40:48 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:36809) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aXAaE-00024Q-RU for 11482@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:40:42 -0500 Original-Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u1KGeWuZ009884 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:40:32 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u1KGeVjr021348 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:40:31 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u1KGeUVF032613; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:40:31 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:113367 Archived-At: > > I don't think there is a problem. :-) But Icicles is a minor mode that > > binds that key globally, so there's a collision... But... >=20 > If it's not against convention, then I think Gnus can bind what it wants > while I'm reading mail with it. Depends on what you call "convention". As the original bug report says: My understanding was that `M-s' is now pretty much reserved as a prefix key for search. Isn't that the case? Is that a convention? For example: `M-s w' and the Dired search keys, which all use prefix key `M-s f'. My thinking for defining `M-s M-s' as an Icicles search prefix key was (a) `M-s' is a prefix key for Emacs search generally, and (b) I did not find any conflicts for `M-s M-s' on the `M-s' prefix key. =20 But if Gnus binds `M-s' to a command, that conflicts with the general use of `M-s' as a prefix key (for search). That is the bug: Gnus should not bind `M-s' to a command. `M-s' should remain a prefix key (for search). =20 Presumably, in the context where `M-s' is bound to a Gnus command it is unavailable for use by Isearch etc. Even for Gnus users of vanilla Emacs, I would think that this would be a loss. Michael Heerdegen replied that for that particular Gnus buffer there is _not_ much use for search, and that Gnus anyway provides its own search search command (on another key, I guess): That Gnus shadows the global M-s binding is another issue. But since Gnus replaces it with a search command suitable for searching articles, it's IMHO not really a problem. AFAIK, only the summary buffer is affected by the M-s binding, and there, "normal" searching is rarely needed. It is true that prefix key `M-s' is _not_ called out in (elisp) `Key Binding Conventions' as being reserved. So in that sense it is perhaps not a convention. Or else that doc is not up-to-date. There are regularities in Emacs default key bindings, which are not called out in (elisp) `Key Binding Conventions' as being "conventional" in the sense of being reserved. Presumably these regularities are only nice-to-haves, not required. If so, the question here is whether, how much, and where Emacs itself wants to respect such a regularity/convention. ("Emacs itself" presumably includes Gnus now, even if it might not have back in the "mid-80s" (or '88, when Gnus was written - and no, I do not see `M-s' there: http://www.gnus.org/2.0/gnus.el.)) So: 1. Yes, of course "Gnus can bind what it wants while [you're] reading mail with it." 2. A minor mode (such as Icicles) can also bind what it wants. 3. That particular Gnus buffer apparently has little need for search, and even less need for Isearch (`M-s ...'), as it has its own search command. 4. Users will generally expect `M-s' to be a search prefix key. That's the "convention". It can confuse users for this or that mode or library to bind `M-s' to something else. But confusion is not the end of the world. And modes and libraries can have good reasons for bindings they make. 5. At least for Icicles, it is trivial for a user to bind Icicles search commands to a different prefix key from `M-s'. This is really not about Icicles, IMO. 6. Because of the `M-s' "convention" and user expectations of it, a natural question is this: Is there a good reason for Gnus _not_ to use a different key from `M-s'? I haven't seen _any_ reason given, so far. But again, see #1... Feel free to close this bug, if you don't care that Gnus respects the `M-s' "convention" and #1 is most important. I filed the bug report based on an Icicles user report. I filed it because of my understanding that `M-s' is conventionally a search prefix key. Although it is trivial for an Icicles user to change the Icicles prefix key for search commands from `M-s M-s' to something else, the reporting user chose to instead change the Gnus key from `M-s'. Maybe that says something about users expecting or wanting `M-s' to continue to be for search. Or maybe not - that's only one user.