From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#3540: Please reserve a ctrl-key combination for interoperability Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 14:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <014ff1d6-9e7e-4bdf-88ed-eefc9133353d@default> References: <1244771200l.4854l.2l@mofo> <87y2xye4nz.fsf@mbork.pl> <0d884621-5d6e-47c6-8a0e-d70d4c09f15e@default> <87tv8lek8p.fsf@mbork.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="135483"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: "Karl O. 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Sun, 06 Oct 2019 21:29:21 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x96LSoa0038780; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 21:29:21 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2vf4pgcecn-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 06 Oct 2019 21:29:20 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0018.oracle.com (abhmp0018.oracle.com [141.146.116.24]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id x96LTGwv014383; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 21:29:17 GMT In-Reply-To: <87tv8lek8p.fsf@mbork.pl> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4900.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9402 signatures=668684 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1908290000 definitions=main-1910060220 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9402 signatures=668684 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1908290000 definitions=main-1910060220 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:168466 Archived-At: > Actually, that's what I do in my config. (Is there anyone who actually > wants C-z's default binding???) Dunno. But I use something very close to it (for GUI). It has the same behavior as the default command, unless you use a prefix arg: (defun iconify/show-frame (&optional all-action) "Iconify selected frame if now shown. Show it if now iconified. A non-negative prefix arg iconifies all shown frames. A negative prefix arg deiconifies all iconified frames." (interactive "P") (cond ((not all-action) (when rename-frame-when-iconify-flag (rename-non-minibuffer-frame)) (iconify-or-deiconify-frame)) ((natnump (prefix-numeric-value all-action)) (iconify-everything)) (t (deiconify-everything)))) ; <=3D=3D Emacs default But I'm not arguing to keep the default `C-z' binding. I'm really arguing against wasting `C-z' on something else, by default. Someday we'll come across a really important new feature that really deserves `C-z' (e.g. as a prefix key). Keys shouldn't be bound by default lightly. Once a key is bound by default it becomes harder to later remove or replace its binding. `C-z' is a wonderful key for general things, including use as a prefix key. (And if not a prefix key then at least for a repeatable command.) And it's as easy to reach as `C-x' on most keyboards. If ever there was a key that I don't think should be bound by default willy nilly (aka wasted, in my view), it's `C-z'. > > The manual should not suggest that users bind any > > particular keys. It's OK for a 3rd-party library > > to suggest key bindings. It's not good for Emacs > > itself to do that. >=20 > I'm not sure I agree. I'd welcome a list of bindings like C-z or M-o > which do nothing useful by default. (In fact, I compiled such a list > myself - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__mbork.pl_2= 019- > 2D03-2D18-5FFree-5FEmacs-5Fkey- > 5Fbindings&d=3DDwIBAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r= =3DkI3P6ljGv > 6CTHIKju0jqInF6AOwMCYRDQUmqX22rJ98&m=3DvtPmjCas97xufIKnzS06ZEh04AKsMp8iJj= - > 9W7kHURQ&s=3DzXD57trzqr01K4n0EBvwEqWYU6PCjR6gahEDtLcmms8&e=3D - but I'm > not very happy with it.) One person's not-very-useful is another's useful. And certainly the manual shouldn't suggest that users bind some key that has a default binding because that binding isn't very useful. If Emacs really thinks some default binding isn't very useful then it shouldn't bind it by default. > > 3rd-party libraries are opt-in by users. Using > > one is like adding its feature/code to your init > > file - it's a user choice. > > > > The same isn't true of much of the code distributed > > by Emacs. And even when a distributed library (e.g. > > `dired-x.el') is opt-in, Emacs should not suggest > > bindings for its commands. "Suggestion" by Emacs > > is sometimes mistakenly taken by users as a "rule" > > or a convention. >=20 > That's why it should be made clear that it's a suggestion, like: >=20 > "Many users find some commands not useful for them at all. They might > want to rebind their keys to ones that they use frequently." That's not helpful, IMO. Anyone can know that and do that, without Emacs suggesting to bind specific keys. And what one user finds not useful another one finds useful. (Why does "Many users..." remind me of DJT's "Many people are saying..."? ;-)) But sure, many users find some things not useful for them. Many users aren't even aware of much of Emacs. Most users, me included, use only a tiny bit of what Emacs offers. Users differ. Use cases differ. There are many ways to use Emacs. Any user who finds some key that is bound by default not to be useful can rebind it. That's not specific to any particular key. The doc should not be trying to find and inform about keys that "many users" find not so useful. > > There's no good reason for Emacs to suggest that > > users use `C-z' for anything particular. >=20 > On the contrary, there is: the meaning of C-z is "I want to leave Emacs > for a moment and be able to come back". Not in GUI Emacs, it's not, unless you consider iconifying to be "leaving Emacs".