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From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Cc: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>,
	"Mattias Engdegård" <mattiase@acm.org>,
	ke.vigouroux@laposte.net, 40671@debbugs.gnu.org,
	"Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>
Subject: bug#40671: [DOC] modify literal objects
Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 23:28:43 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <012e8bc3-df4b-3884-4e54-5fe7ef4248cb@cs.ucla.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <b6cbbcfb-c841-0b0a-d286-7348677b248a@yandex.ru>

On 5/1/20 6:07 PM, Dmitry Gutov wrote:

> They very rarely use the phrase "constant objects", however. Instead, it's
> almost always "objects that appears as a constant [in code]", "object ... used
> as a quoted constant", "object may not ... appear as constants in code",
> "objects are similar as a constant".

We could use similar circumlocutions. Or instead of saying "constant" we could
say "unchanging", as distinct from "unchangeable". (It beats
"object-that-should-not-be-changed" or "glass object - you changed it, you broke
it!". :-) The usual word for this notion is "constant", though.

> IOW, it's the difference between constant values and constant pointers to
> [mutable] values.

I don't see that. A constant (or "unchanging") string is like a mutable string,
except you shouldn't change it. There's no sense in CLtL in which a mutable
object must be implemented via a pointer to a value whereas a constant must not
be implemented that way.
> there is no juxtaposition of "mutable objects" vs "constant objects"
> anywhere in there

Yes, the mutable/immutable terminology revolution happened mostly after CLtL was
written.

> So the section
> "Constants and Mutability", even though it has valuable information, could use a
> full rewrite. And could probably move to end of the "Self-Evaluating Forms"
> section.

Whether an object is constant is distinct from whether it's derived from a
self-evaluating form, because one can have constants that were never derived
from any self-evaluating form. Any doc rewrite should be careful to keep the two
notions distinct, quite plausibily (though not necessarily) in different sections.

> I can try to make a patch, but at this point is would consist mostly of deletions.

Certainly some stuff could be deleted (the tutorial could be trimmed as you
suggest, for example), but we should keep the baby while we're throwing out the
bathwater. And if we're using circumlocutions the text is likely to get longer,
not shorter.





  reply	other threads:[~2020-05-02  6:28 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 170+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-04-16 19:28 bug#40671: [DOC] modify literal objects Kevin Vigouroux via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2020-04-17 16:09 ` Mattias Engdegård
2020-04-17 16:37   ` Mattias Engdegård
2020-04-17 17:27     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-18 20:10 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-18 21:54   ` Drew Adams
2020-04-19  2:39     ` Noam Postavsky
2020-04-19 20:39     ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-19 21:01       ` Drew Adams
2020-04-19 21:16         ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-19 22:24           ` Drew Adams
2020-04-19 22:51             ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-20  5:32               ` Drew Adams
2020-04-22 17:36                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-01  3:03     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-01  5:16       ` Drew Adams
2020-05-01 21:46       ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-01 23:37         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-19  2:26   ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-19 13:56   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-19 16:59     ` Mattias Engdegård
2020-04-19 19:21       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-19 21:02       ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-19 21:11         ` Drew Adams
2020-04-19 21:57         ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-19 22:41           ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-19 23:45             ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-20  0:24               ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-20  0:53                 ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-20  3:23                   ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-20  3:36                     ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-22  6:30                       ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-20  5:54                     ` Drew Adams
2020-04-22 17:21                       ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-23  0:49                         ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-24  2:36                           ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-24 15:08                             ` Drew Adams
2020-04-25  1:58                               ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-24 16:39                             ` Mattias Engdegård
2020-04-24 16:46                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-25  2:21                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-25  2:40                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-25  3:20                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-25 19:30                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26  3:49                                         ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-26 14:03                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 14:19                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-26 14:34                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 15:46                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-26 16:02                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 16:58                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-26 17:39                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 18:14                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-26 18:32                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 18:41                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-26 18:53                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 18:57                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-26 19:22                                               ` Philipp Stephani
2020-04-26 20:14                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-26 21:23                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 23:13                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-27  0:53                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-27  1:49                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28  3:05                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28  8:17                                                         ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 13:54                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28 17:59                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 18:46                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28 19:20                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 19:33                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28 20:09                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 21:10                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28 23:10                                                                         ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 23:36                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28 23:53                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 23:57                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28 23:53                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-29  0:04                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-29  0:14                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-29  0:55                                                                           ` Drew Adams
2020-04-29  1:03                                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-29  1:15                                                                               ` Drew Adams
2020-04-29  1:27                                                                                 ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-29  1:38                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-29  4:36                                                                               ` Drew Adams
2020-04-29 16:18                                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-01  2:47                                                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-01  6:23                                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-01  3:13                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-01  5:15                                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-01 21:40                                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-01 22:05                                                                                   ` Drew Adams
2020-05-01 22:28                                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-02  1:07                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-02  6:28                                                                                     ` Paul Eggert [this message]
2020-05-02 15:42                                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-02 19:35                                                                                         ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-03  1:30                                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-03  7:40                                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-03 16:44                                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-03 20:48                                                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-03 22:17                                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-03 22:18                                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-03 22:39                                                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-03 22:53                                                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-03 23:10                                                                                                         ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-04 10:16                                                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-04 17:52                                                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-05  1:39                                                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-05  6:09                                                                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-05 12:38                                                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-09  6:10                                                                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-10  3:13                                                                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-10 13:34                                                                                                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-10 17:29                                                                                                                         ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-11  0:00                                                                                                                           ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-11  0:26                                                                                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-11  1:47                                                                                                                             ` Drew Adams
2020-05-11  1:54                                                                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-11  2:33                                                                                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-11  2:56                                                                                                                               ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-11  4:21                                                                                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-11  4:51                                                                                                                                   ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-11  6:28                                                                                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-11 13:57                                                                                                                                       ` Noam Postavsky
2020-05-11 22:36                                                                                                                                         ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-11 22:30                                                                                                                                       ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-12  3:20                                                                                                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-12  4:24                                                                                                                                         ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-13  3:57                                                                                                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-13  5:05                                                                                                                                             ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-14  5:14                                                                                                                                               ` Richard Stallman
     [not found]                                                                                                                                       ` <05BEF593-F16A-4DEE-98BC-653221F1F9EE@acm.org>
2020-05-17  0:11                                                                                                                                         ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-17  9:43                                                                                                                                           ` Mattias Engdegård
2020-05-17 16:38                                                                                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-11  1:53                                                                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-11  3:18                                                                                                                               ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-11  0:44                                                                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-11  1:57                                                                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-12  1:59                                                                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17  1:28                                                                                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-17  5:02                                                                                                                                   ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-17 16:34                                                                                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-17 12:39                                                                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 16:21                                                                                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-05 17:40                                                                                                                   ` Drew Adams
2020-05-05 18:49                                                                                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-05 19:26                                                                                                                       ` Drew Adams
2020-05-05 20:48                                                                                                               ` Kevin Vigouroux via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2020-05-09  5:57                                                                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 21:18                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28 17:25                                                           ` Drew Adams
2020-04-28 17:47                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-29  0:32                                                               ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-29  1:40                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-29  4:40                                                                   ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-29  8:01                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-29 16:36                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-24 17:18                               ` Drew Adams
2020-04-25  3:38                               ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-25 18:26                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-25  2:22                           ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-25  6:00                             ` Andreas Schwab
2020-04-25 18:23                               ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 23:52                             ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-21  1:25               ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-21  2:20                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-20  6:02             ` Drew Adams
2020-04-19 20:45     ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-20 14:10       ` Eli Zaretskii

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