bug#18001: default behavior changes

bug#18001: default behavior changes

[Joel F Rodriguez]

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To whom it may concern,

 

I upgraded my OS to FreeBSD9.2-release and now my installation of emacs
seems stuck at displaying just 80 columns.

 

I have spent the better part of day trying to research how to change this
and why it changed to no avail. Going over hundreds of lisp files isn't
exactly how I want to spend the day when I have work to do.

 

On a personal note I find it archaic that when I bring up emacs in a ssh
that it comes up in 80 col mode and will not automatically resize to the
width of my window. The days of 80 col crts are long gone.

 

So if you could be so kind as to point me in the right direction, I would
appreciate it.

 

Joel

 


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bug#18001: default behavior changes

[Glenn Morris]

"Joel F Rodriguez" wrote:

> I upgraded my OS to FreeBSD9.2-release and now my installation of emacs
> seems stuck at displaying just 80 columns.
[...]
> On a personal note I find it archaic that when I bring up emacs in a ssh
> that it comes up in 80 col mode and will not automatically resize to the
> width of my window.

I'm afraid your report makes little sense to me.

What version of Emacs is this? (The latest is 24.3.)
Are you running it in a text-terminal, or in graphical mode?

Either way, I don't understand.

In a text-terminal, Emacs uses whatever the terminal width is.
It is as far as I know impossible for it to somehow be "less wide" than
the terminal.

In graphical mode, you can make the width whatever you like by resizing
it in the usual way.

bug#18001: default behavior changes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 22:11:56 -0400
> Cc: 18001@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> "Joel F Rodriguez" wrote:
> 
> > I upgraded my OS to FreeBSD9.2-release and now my installation of emacs
> > seems stuck at displaying just 80 columns.
> [...]
> > On a personal note I find it archaic that when I bring up emacs in a ssh
> > that it comes up in 80 col mode and will not automatically resize to the
> > width of my window.
> 
> I'm afraid your report makes little sense to me.

I, too, see little sense here.

> In a text-terminal, Emacs uses whatever the terminal width is.
> It is as far as I know impossible for it to somehow be "less wide" than
> the terminal.

Nitpicking: it _is_ possible for Emacs on a TTY to show a frame that
is narrower than the terminal, but it requires an explicit user
command, and the possibility exists for debugging only.  Emacs
certainly doesn't do that on startup.

bug#18001: default behavior changes

[Joel F Rodriguez]

LOL, it made little sense to me why things were different.

But I found my cure, using the -nw option.

Sorry for the disturbance.

Joel

-----Original Message-----
From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+joel=tahoestores.com@gnu.org
[mailto:bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+joel=tahoestores.com@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
Glenn Morris
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 7:12 PM
To: Joel F Rodriguez
Cc: 18001@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#18001: default behavior changes

"Joel F Rodriguez" wrote:

> I upgraded my OS to FreeBSD9.2-release and now my installation of 
> emacs seems stuck at displaying just 80 columns.
[...]
> On a personal note I find it archaic that when I bring up emacs in a 
> ssh that it comes up in 80 col mode and will not automatically resize 
> to the width of my window.

I'm afraid your report makes little sense to me.

What version of Emacs is this? (The latest is 24.3.) Are you running it in a
text-terminal, or in graphical mode?

Either way, I don't understand.

In a text-terminal, Emacs uses whatever the terminal width is.
It is as far as I know impossible for it to somehow be "less wide" than the
terminal.

In graphical mode, you can make the width whatever you like by resizing it
in the usual way.

bug#18001: default behavior changes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "Joel F Rodriguez" <joel@tahoestores.com>
> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 11:31:22 -0700
> 
> Since when is a ssl session considered a text terminal?

Since about forever.

> My observations is somehow the behavior is different, I've been using these
> tools for what, 30 years?

Then perhaps there's a misunderstanding.

> Anyone that runs putty for a remote ssl shell knows that the display width
> is set by the width of the  window which you can make any size.

Yes, and that's exactly what we've been saying.  Which means if your
terminal emulator (PuTTY, presumably) window is wider than 80 columns,
Emacs will display a window that is wider than 80 columns.

bug#18001: default behavior changes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "Joel F Rodriguez" <joel@tahoestores.com>
> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 12:32:24 -0700
> 
> Oh well, win some lose some.
> 
> The emacs option -nw according to the docs:
> 
> -nw, --no-window-system
>                       Tell Emacs not to create a graphical frame.  If you
> use
>                       this switch when invoking Emacs from an xterm(1)
> window,
>                       display is done in that window.
> 
> Hence, the default is a graphical frame.  The text window created in a
> graphical frame is fixed width regardless of the size of the window. In
> fact, some window sizes rendered the fixed width text frame unreadable.
> 
> A text-terminal is more akin to the old console device or to the dec vt100
> display terminals. But even today's consoles, rescale the window size to
> some extent.
> 
> Running a remote ssh bears little resemblance to a text-terminal. This has
> been true for a decade or more.

When you say "run Emacs via ssh", every reasonable human being will
understand that you are running a text-mode session in the ssh shell
window.  If what you actually meant is X over ssh, you should have
said that explicitly.

In addition, running an X over ssh session, which is indeed a
graphical one, the size of the Emacs frame can be controlled either by
command-line arguments or by resizing the frame with the mouse.  You
have been told that in the initial response to your report.  For the
details, please see the Emacs manual.

(And I don't appreciate your making this a personal dispute by
consistently omitting the bug address from the CC list and writing
only to me personally.  Please stop.)

bug#18001: default behavior changes

[Joel F Rodriguez]

Thanks for the clarification. But my experience doesn't quite fit with your
explanation in graphical mode. That was the crux of the problem. In
graphical mode I could not resize the emacs display by resizing the window.
It stayed fixed width and at times would not display at all under certain
window sizes.

Using -nw, which according to the docs is not using "graphical mode" results
in the display behavior you describe for "text-terminal".

Thanks.

Joel

-----Original Message-----
From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+joel=tahoestores.com@gnu.org
[mailto:bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+joel=tahoestores.com@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
Glenn Morris
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 7:12 PM
To: Joel F Rodriguez
Cc: 18001@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#18001: default behavior changes

"Joel F Rodriguez" wrote:

> I upgraded my OS to FreeBSD9.2-release and now my installation of 
> emacs seems stuck at displaying just 80 columns.
[...]
> On a personal note I find it archaic that when I bring up emacs in a 
> ssh that it comes up in 80 col mode and will not automatically resize 
> to the width of my window.

I'm afraid your report makes little sense to me.

What version of Emacs is this? (The latest is 24.3.) Are you running it in a
text-terminal, or in graphical mode?

Either way, I don't understand.

In a text-terminal, Emacs uses whatever the terminal width is.
It is as far as I know impossible for it to somehow be "less wide" than the
terminal.

In graphical mode, you can make the width whatever you like by resizing it
in the usual way.

bug#18001: default behavior changes

[Glenn Morris]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> consistently omitting the bug address from the CC list and writing

When people do this to me, then unless they have written something
clearly intended to be private, I just assume it was a mistake and
resend it to the bug address. Some people don't seem to get that
"reply-to-all" is the way to go with bug reports.

bug#18001: default behavior changes

[Joel F Rodriguez]

Hi Eli,

If you are asking did I find or read endless docs dealing with the proper
etiquette for submitting a bug report to emacs? Then you are correct, I did
not.

The problem seems far too simple as to require extensive explanations and
details un-related to solving the problem. I mean, how many versions of
emacs are current under Freebsd-9.2-release? Exactly one.

No, I got far too much static relative to semantics and no answers. The
answer was so simple, I forgot it. I guess I confused the issue when I asked
what changed.

After 40 years in this field I can assure you it is much more important to
come up with a simple answer, then to go off on a rage on bug reporters not
being familiar with your specific jargon. I mean who still talks about
text-terminals in the real world? This is indicative of the emacs docs on
the whole, its primary keys are technical specific terms which makes it
nearly impossible to format a query to google unless you have had your head
buried in the source codes for months.

Again, sorry for the ruckus, but I do like the old saying, "if it ain't
broke, break it".

Joel


-----Original Message-----
From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+joel=tahoestores.com@gnu.org
[mailto:bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+joel=tahoestores.com@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
Glenn Morris
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2014 1:28 PM
To: Eli Zaretskii
Cc: 18001@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#18001: default behavior changes

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> consistently omitting the bug address from the CC list and writing

When people do this to me, then unless they have written something clearly
intended to be private, I just assume it was a mistake and resend it to the
bug address. Some people don't seem to get that "reply-to-all" is the way to
go with bug reports.

bug#18001: default behavior changes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 13:13:03 -0700
> From: "Joel F Rodriguez" <joel@tahoestores.com>
> 
> In graphical mode I could not resize the emacs display by resizing
> the window.  It stayed fixed width and at times would not display at
> all under certain window sizes.

How did you try to resize it?

bug#18001: default behavior changes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "Joel F Rodriguez" <joel@tahoestores.com>
> Cc: <18001@debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 14:28:36 -0700
> 
> The problem seems far too simple as to require extensive explanations and
> details un-related to solving the problem.

And yet even now, after half a dozen exchanges, neither you nor we
understand why the problem happened to you, why you couldn't resize a
graphics frame.

> No, I got far too much static relative to semantics and no answers.

It is unfortunate that so many messages have come and gone without any
real understanding of your problem.  Perhaps it would have helped if
you answered our questions.

> The answer was so simple, I forgot it. I guess I confused the issue
> when I asked what changed.

Going to -nw is _not_ the answer.  GUI frames _can_ be resized, I do
that every day.  Their initial size _can_ be controlled, both from the
command-line arguments you use to invoke Emacs, and from your ~/.emacs
init file.

> After 40 years in this field I can assure you it is much more important to
> come up with a simple answer, then to go off on a rage on bug reporters not
> being familiar with your specific jargon. I mean who still talks about
> text-terminals in the real world? This is indicative of the emacs docs on
> the whole, its primary keys are technical specific terms which makes it
> nearly impossible to format a query to google unless you have had your head
> buried in the source codes for months.

The text-mode sessions are still widely used and are completely
covered in the documentation.

> Again, sorry for the ruckus, but I do like the old saying, "if it ain't
> broke, break it".

Evidently, something _is_ broke on your system, or in how you
invoke/use Emacs.

bug#18001: default behavior changes

[Joel F Rodriguez]

OK Eli, my apology. I don't often resort to consulting with bug lists and I
had just spent a solid day upgrading my FreeBSD system.

I agree, it appears -nw is not the answer and my initial observations that
it solved the problem have since disappeared.

So ok, I just rebuilt which amounts to running 'freebsd-update -r
9.2-RELEASE upgrade' followed by ' /usr/sbin/freebsd-update install'.

The procedure is documented at
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/updating-upgrading-freebsdupdate.html

Portmaster was installed and run after the successful upgrade and the system
spent the night rebuilding all the ports.

The next day when I used putty to SSH to the server and start emacs I would
get a fixed width version (80cols)  of emacs running in a resizable window.
If I resized the window emacs would disappear from view.  When I stated
default behavior, that is what I meant, I do not customize emacs in anyway
shape or form, I use just what the port install gives me. So naturally I
started playing with the config files to no avail. I also rebuilt the
emacs-devel version. Four hours later I submitted my bug report.

The version of emacs installed via ports is version 24.3.1.

SSH and emacs are my go to tools to maintain my servers, so I was a bit
bummed with the fixed width stuff. So much so I installed the latest version
of Cygwin on my win7 workstation. An xterm session to the host revealed that
emacs was resizing correctly so this issue was limited to SSH. The xterm
session also lacks some cut/paste features I use and I'm not that fond of
bash.

After that I tried the -nw option which seemed to work.

To continue with the story, I then built gnome2 to checkout their
desktop(kinda sucks) and spent another day installing various X11 stuff and
Gnome2 tools. Somewhere along the way my 'emacs -nw' alias stopped working
and viola emacs started correctly resizing in a SSH window.

Thanks for your persistence.

Joel




-----Original Message-----
From: Eli Zaretskii [mailto:eliz@gnu.org] 
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2014 8:57 PM
To: Joel F Rodriguez
Cc: rgm@gnu.org; 18001@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#18001: default behavior changes

> From: "Joel F Rodriguez" <joel@tahoestores.com>
> Cc: <18001@debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 14:28:36 -0700
> 
> The problem seems far too simple as to require extensive explanations 
> and details un-related to solving the problem.

And yet even now, after half a dozen exchanges, neither you nor we
understand why the problem happened to you, why you couldn't resize a
graphics frame.

> No, I got far too much static relative to semantics and no answers.

It is unfortunate that so many messages have come and gone without any real
understanding of your problem.  Perhaps it would have helped if you answered
our questions.

> The answer was so simple, I forgot it. I guess I confused the issue 
> when I asked what changed.

Going to -nw is _not_ the answer.  GUI frames _can_ be resized, I do that
every day.  Their initial size _can_ be controlled, both from the
command-line arguments you use to invoke Emacs, and from your ~/.emacs init
file.

> After 40 years in this field I can assure you it is much more 
> important to come up with a simple answer, then to go off on a rage on 
> bug reporters not being familiar with your specific jargon. I mean who 
> still talks about text-terminals in the real world? This is indicative 
> of the emacs docs on the whole, its primary keys are technical 
> specific terms which makes it nearly impossible to format a query to 
> google unless you have had your head buried in the source codes for
months.

The text-mode sessions are still widely used and are completely covered in
the documentation.

> Again, sorry for the ruckus, but I do like the old saying, "if it 
> ain't broke, break it".

Evidently, something _is_ broke on your system, or in how you invoke/use
Emacs.

bug#18001: default behavior changes

[Joel F Rodriguez]

With my mouse:)

-----Original Message-----
From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+joel=tahoestores.com@gnu.org
[mailto:bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+joel=tahoestores.com@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Eli
Zaretskii
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2014 8:50 PM
To: Joel F Rodriguez
Cc: 18001@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#18001: default behavior changes

> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 13:13:03 -0700
> From: "Joel F Rodriguez" <joel@tahoestores.com>
> 
> In graphical mode I could not resize the emacs display by resizing the 
> window.  It stayed fixed width and at times would not display at all 
> under certain window sizes.

How did you try to resize it?