From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:33:32 -0800 Message-ID: <002601c978d2$1a65e340$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> Reply-To: Drew Adams , 1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1232217826 13373 80.91.229.12 (17 Jan 2009 18:43:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:43:46 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com To: "'martin rudalics'" Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 17 19:44:56 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1LOGAB-0003a4-QA for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:44:56 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51821 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LOG8u-0005ag-Vz for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:43:37 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LOG8p-0005a2-EO for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:43:31 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LOG8n-0005Z8-L6 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:43:30 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=37641 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LOG8n-0005Z2-CX for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:43:29 -0500 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu ([138.23.92.77]:56894) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LOG8m-0005CS-Rc for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:43:29 -0500 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu (rzlab.ucr.edu [127.0.0.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n0HIhQ2a007879; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:43:27 -0800 Original-Received: (from debbugs@localhost) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id n0HIe4KT006833; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:40:04 -0800 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:40:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.12322172215437 (code B ref 1754); Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:40:04 +0000 Original-Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 17 Jan 2009 18:33:41 +0000 X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. Original-Received: from rgminet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n0HIXcoe005430 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:33:39 -0800 Original-Received: from acsinet13.oracle.com (acsinet13.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n0HIYHHx001330 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:34:19 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt700.oracle.com (acsmt700.oracle.com [141.146.40.70]) by acsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n0HIYAnA010982; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:34:11 GMT Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.128.33) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:33:27 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 In-Reply-To: <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> thread-index: AcltjCrwnxGF/dH1TYS/6JS/3a2kAALRBJjw X-Source-IP: acsmt700.oracle.com [141.146.40.70] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A09020B.49722479.0247:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:43:30 -0500 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:24233 Archived-At: > From: martin rudalics Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:14 AM > `default-frame-alist' and `initial-frame-alist' are a mess > because these are customizable variables that should not be > affected by toggling minor modes on and off. Sorry for the late reply. I wanted to comment on this part, speaking more generally and not just about these two variables. And I realize that Martin was saying something particular - I'm not contradicting that. I just want to say that it can be appropriate for a command, including a minor-mode command, to change the value of a user option (customizable variable) - e.g. toggle it. Obviously that happens for the mode variable itself, but that is not the only case where this can be useful. There is nothing wrong, in general, with a command or other code changing the value of a user option, as long as the _documentation mentions_ this behavior. There is even nothing wrong necessarily with a command saving the new option value - provided the command's doc calls this out as part of the behavior. Customize is not the only way to change or save option values, and it shouldn't be regarded as such. The Customize UI is limited; other commands can offer alternative, even improved, user interaction in some cases.